Re: RWD vs. AWD.

[Bill Hussey <vfrboy@home.net>]

Khan Klatt wrote:

> Everything that makes you a better driver on the track doesn't always
> put you in better control of your vehicle. Certain driving behaviors
> on the track are PLAINLY ILLEGAL (and dangerous) on the street with
> the other untrained drivers. A "better driver" on a track is someone
> who beats the other drivers across the finish line. That's why track
> events are timed, or they are given a "first place" designation for a
> winner.

Nope .. you're wrong.  I never said that I'm talking about racing around on the
street. What I'm saying is that knowing how to control your car in every
situation that arises makes you a better driver.  Everyone with a license can
control a car in a straight line at 25mph, it takes someone with skill to
extract every ounce of performance out of vehcile to avoid an accident as it
unfolds in front of him/her as an example.

> On any particular race day, you will see an accident, if not handful
> or dozens of accidents. You'll see a car spin out, or hit some tires
> or a bale of hay. So on a race track with about twenty to thirty
> drivers, you'll have at least one accident. Not good odds. With odds
> like that, you'll get in an accident 5% of the time.

This is your argument??  People run around a track at 10/10ths the entire time
... of course something bad is going to happen.  But they know where 10/10th is
and what's possible, it this ability that allows someone to avoid a situation
that a lesser driver might not be able to.

> Look above. And let me let you into another clue. You are
> constructing a "STRAW MAN FALLACY" by saying "explain to me how you
> can pick up cornering and/or braking ability with AWD". I never said
> you could. Why would I try to explain to you how you can do something
> that I never said could be done?

Excuse me??  There are three basic forces that are put on a car ... acclerating,
cornering, and braking.  I've already agreed that the only advantage to AWD is
accelerating, and yet you continue to argue that it is superior in "handling" to
RWD.  I guess my idea of handling and your idea of handling are two seperate
things, I consider handling having to do with the cornering and braking ability
of a car ... what do you consider it to be?

> OK, Einstein, here we go, and pay attention because I said it before
> and you missed it:
>
> 1. AWD is better in the average-to-worst case scenario in wet conditions.

Prove it.

> 2. AWD is better in the average-to-worst case scenario in icy conditions.

Sure .. accelerating.  You've just said that you're not arguing it corners or
brakes better, so the only thing left is accelerating.  So maybe then you can
explain to me why it is you're so worried about picking up speed as fast as
possible in inclement weather conditions seeing as how you're such a law abiding
citizen who would never endanger other people on the road?

> And all of your track experience doesn't mean squat on ice, because
> unless you're running some exotic polar rally, most racetrack events
> are cancelled if the track is iced over.

Oh boy .. a brick wall here.  Let's try this AGAIN.  If you apply track
techniques, I'm not saying track speeds, but techniques, to the street, you will
put yourself in more control of the car than if you do not apply said
techniques.  Reason:  Picture a 90 degree right hand bend on a track.  The
racers will use "X" line to get them around that corner the fastest.  "X" line
carrys the most speed through the turn for the available traction of the tires.
If you use this line, at street speeds, you will minimizing the amount of
traction that you have "used up" during this turn, than if you had taken the
wrong line.  On the street, this translates into more availble traction to avoid
whatever may pop up in front of you, this is especially important when you're
having fun on a nice day or if the WEATHER CONDITIONS ARE BAD.  Maximizing
available traction is ALWAYS a good thing, there is no time that it is not.

> Plus, we're not talking about racecars. We're not talking formula 1.
> Sure, I'll grant you they have a reason for running RWD in many of
> those situations. BUT WE ARE NOT IN THOSE CONDITIONS MOST OF THE
> YEAR. If you and your buddies Michael Andretti and Richard Petty are
> going to hang out on the track, fine. Maybe you can introduce us
> sometime. Until then, I don't care about your little shining moment
> where you're right only if you are on a racetrack with other
> professional drivers.

Read above ...


> Again, this is a classic straw man fallacy. I tell you the Earth
> revolves around the Sun, and you ask me to show you that the moon
> isn't made out of cheese. Nobody's talking about cheese, and nobody
> mentioned the moon. In terms you can understand:

What crap are you spitting out now??  I'll try this AGAIN.  I said that AWD is
only better for accelerating, you argued that no, its better than that.  So I
ask you to prove how it helps braking or cornering, and then you tell me that
you're not arguing that ... a little confused are we?


> NOBODY MENTIONED BRAKING OR CORNERING EXCEPT YOU. WE'RE NOT TALKING
> ABOUT BRAKING AND CORNERING, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CONTROL OF A VEHICLE
> IN ANY AND ALL CONDITIONS INCLUDING RAIN, AND ICE ON ORDINARY,
> EVERYDAY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Oh boy ...


> Braking and cornering has very little to do in the real world (i.e.
> non racetrack conditions) with how many tires are driving your car
> under acceleration.

Double oh boy ...

> No. It's irrelevant. Not germane. Not on the topic. Off on a tangent.
> On cloud 9. Find someone else to debate that topic, because it's not
> the topic we're talking about here.

Too many oh boys ... so what are you talking about again.  HOW DOES IT HELP!!!!
Keep telling me that it's great to have it, now explain to me how.  I hope
you're not a lawyer, "No your honor, my client didn't do it."  "How do you know
that?"  "Because your honor, my client didn't do it."

> Who cares? Anyone? Bueller? Your track miles mean nothing to the
> topic we are talking about. We're talking about sports, and you
> mention you have a degree in gynecolegy. Were you ignored as a child?
> Or is it normal to beg for attention in this way? We're all impressed
> that you can do great stuff with RWD on a track. I don't drive on a
> track. And if I did, I still wouldn't drive a RWD car off the track
> in non-optimal situations.

Here's one for you .. have you ever driven a RWD vehicle?

> Are you crazy? Nobody on an average day, driving around in their car
> with kids in the back seat, or when the road is icy or extremely wet
> is going to "do different things with the front and rear of the car
> at the same time".

All you keep talking about is inclement weather.  If you're driving in rain, but
you're not spinning or sliding anything, than AWD or RWD or FWD won't make a
difference.  I'm talking about in emergency situations, when something happens
in front of you that you can't control like a deer, or another accidentk, or a
drunk driver.

> If you want a racecar, I suggest you not buy anything with any room
> for groceries in the trunk (like, say, a Jetta?). If you have room
> for groceries, then chances are you often use your car in everyday
> circumstances, and in the winter time, it is not uncommon to have
> roads iced over, and in those circumstances AWD will be superior to
> any other type of wheeled vehicle, all other things kept equal.
> (Comparing apples to apples)

So you love accelerating as fast as you can on ice ... and who's the crazy one?
This IS essentially what you are saying since you can't even SPECULATE as to how
else it helps you.

> Finally, we're able to agree on something. You're missing the friggin point.
>
> We're not talking about your track experiences, we're talking REAL
> WORLD SCENARIOS, where if you lose traction, you're going to careen
> into a railing and cause several thousand dollars of damage, and that
> is if the railing holds, and you don't go flying into a canyon and
> kill yourself

Assuming that you're driving along this canyon road and you hit a large patch of
ice lets say that makes you lose control ... how is the AWD going to help??
Will you accelerate into the canyon harder in hopes of jumping to the other
side??  The best thing you could do is spin the car 180 degrees and floor the
throttle in hopes that you can claw your way to a stop ... but if you've got
enough traction to do that, you shouldn't have been in that situation in the
first place.

> On a familiar area like a track or your neighborhood, maybe you can
> be your local neighborhood terror, but some of us drive in conditions
> and in locations we are not familiar with. Sometimes those locations
> are icy. Sometimes they are extremely wet. And we have no intention
> of "doing different things with both ends of the car at the same
> time" because by definition, that is a loss of control, and no matter
> how you slice it, that is a BAD thing that only AWD can help you
> eliminate as much as possible compared to FWD or RWD.

I do nothing BUT explore foreign roads.  Every fucking thing I've said has had
to do with nothing but driving better on the street, which translates into the
track, and vice versa.  If you can't get that concept through your head .. buy a
moutain bike.

Bill