Re: RWD vs. AWD.

[Khan Klatt <khan@mediaaccess.com>]

At 5:45 PM -0500 2/1/2000, Bill Hussey wrote:
>Khan Klatt wrote:
>
>Forgive me for assuming that whatever makes you a faster driver also 
>makes you a better driver.  (if you can't find the sarcasm in that 
>statement .. look harder).

I don't know if you intended sarcasm, but there is none there. If you 
meant you were joking, that's a different story. And I hope you are 
joking, because that is a fallacy. A fast driver, by definition, is 
not a better driver.


>EVERYTHING THAT MAKES YOU A BETTER DRIVER ON THE TRACK PUTS YOU IN 
>BETTER CONTROL OF YOUR VEHICLE WHICH MAKES YOU A BETTER DRIVER ON 
>THE STREET .... DO NOT FORGET THAT

That's fine and dandy. That's also wrong, and I'll tell you why:

Everything that makes you a better driver on the track doesn't always 
put you in better control of your vehicle. Certain driving behaviors 
on the track are PLAINLY ILLEGAL (and dangerous) on the street with 
the other untrained drivers. A "better driver" on a track is someone 
who beats the other drivers across the finish line. That's why track 
events are timed, or they are given a "first place" designation for a 
winner.

On any particular race day, you will see an accident, if not handful 
or dozens of accidents. You'll see a car spin out, or hit some tires 
or a bale of hay. So on a race track with about twenty to thirty 
drivers, you'll have at least one accident. Not good odds. With odds 
like that, you'll get in an accident 5% of the time.

On the street, because people aren't pushing their cars to the limit, 
because they are trying to avoid accidents and higher insurance 
premiums, accident rates are MUCH lower than 5%. Otherwise, the 
annual cost of your insurance would be MUCH higher.

Now to debunk your other incorrect statements.

>Ok Einstein ... explain to me how you can pick up cornering and/or 
>braking ability with AWD.  I've gotta hear this one.  And where 
>exaclty has anyone proved me wrong?

Look above. And let me let you into another clue. You are 
constructing a "STRAW MAN FALLACY" by saying "explain to me how you 
can pick up cornering and/or braking ability with AWD". I never said 
you could. Why would I try to explain to you how you can do something 
that I never said could be done?


>Acceleration is the only advantage to AWD, even on dirt ... you 
>prove me wrong.

OK, Einstein, here we go, and pay attention because I said it before 
and you missed it:

1. AWD is better in the average-to-worst case scenario in wet conditions.
2. AWD is better in the average-to-worst case scenario in icy conditions.
3. Of course, in wet or icy conditions, the absolute worst case 
scenario is you have no traction on ANY tire, and no matter what you 
do, you're SOL. But right before you lose traction on all wheels, 
chances are good that some of the wheels WILL grip, and in any of 
those circumstances you're better off.

And all of your track experience doesn't mean squat on ice, because 
unless you're running some exotic polar rally, most racetrack events 
are cancelled if the track is iced over.

Plus, we're not talking about racecars. We're not talking formula 1. 
Sure, I'll grant you they have a reason for running RWD in many of 
those situations. BUT WE ARE NOT IN THOSE CONDITIONS MOST OF THE 
YEAR. If you and your buddies Michael Andretti and Richard Petty are 
going to hang out on the track, fine. Maybe you can introduce us 
sometime. Until then, I don't care about your little shining moment 
where you're right only if you are on a racetrack with other 
professional drivers.

>Just something .. anyone .. someone explain some type of force, or 
>some physical condition of motion that makes AWD CORNER OR BRAKE 
>better than a RWD vehicle.

Again, this is a classic straw man fallacy. I tell you the Earth 
revolves around the Sun, and you ask me to show you that the moon 
isn't made out of cheese. Nobody's talking about cheese, and nobody 
mentioned the moon. In terms you can understand:

NOBODY MENTIONED BRAKING OR CORNERING EXCEPT YOU. WE'RE NOT TALKING 
ABOUT BRAKING AND CORNERING, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CONTROL OF A VEHICLE 
IN ANY AND ALL CONDITIONS INCLUDING RAIN, AND ICE ON ORDINARY, 
EVERYDAY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Braking and cornering has very little to do in the real world (i.e. 
non racetrack conditions) with how many tires are driving your car 
under acceleration.

And again, I'm not angry or yelling, just hoping that point will sink 
in if it's in CAPS.

>Show me some article or something from some respected person as to 
>what exactly makes a car corner harder with AWD.

No. It's irrelevant. Not germane. Not on the topic. Off on a tangent. 
On cloud 9. Find someone else to debate that topic, because it's not 
the topic we're talking about here.

>I will repeat the fact that I have done track miles with all three 
>setups, AWD, RWD, and FWD.

Who cares? Anyone? Bueller? Your track miles mean nothing to the 
topic we are talking about. We're talking about sports, and you 
mention you have a degree in gynecolegy. Were you ignored as a child? 
Or is it normal to beg for attention in this way? We're all impressed 
that you can do great stuff with RWD on a track. I don't drive on a 
track. And if I did, I still wouldn't drive a RWD car off the track 
in non-optimal situations.

>I've even had track time in a mid-engine car.  RWD is the only 
>configuration that gives you total control of the car, the physical 
>ability to do different things with the front and rear of the car at 
>the same time.

Are you crazy? Nobody on an average day, driving around in their car 
with kids in the back seat, or when the road is icy or extremely wet 
is going to "do different things with the front and rear of the car 
at the same time".

If you want a racecar, I suggest you not buy anything with any room 
for groceries in the trunk (like, say, a Jetta?). If you have room 
for groceries, then chances are you often use your car in everyday 
circumstances, and in the winter time, it is not uncommon to have 
roads iced over, and in those circumstances AWD will be superior to 
any other type of wheeled vehicle, all other things kept equal. 
(Comparing apples to apples)

>You talk about safety in inclement weather conditions, which means 
>that you're more concerned with survival than speed, that's fine. 
>But if you're not accelerating hard out of the corners in wet 
>conditions, then you're not utilizing the one glaring advantage of 
>AWD, so what's the friggin point?

Finally, we're able to agree on something. You're missing the friggin point.

We're not talking about your track experiences, we're talking REAL 
WORLD SCENARIOS, where if you lose traction, you're going to careen 
into a railing and cause several thousand dollars of damage, and that 
is if the railing holds, and you don't go flying into a canyon and 
kill yourself.

On a familiar area like a track or your neighborhood, maybe you can 
be your local neighborhood terror, but some of us drive in conditions 
and in locations we are not familiar with. Sometimes those locations 
are icy. Sometimes they are extremely wet. And we have no intention 
of "doing different things with both ends of the car at the same 
time" because by definition, that is a loss of control, and no matter 
how you slice it, that is a BAD thing that only AWD can help you 
eliminate as much as possible compared to FWD or RWD.

And finally, AMEN. I will not respond to this thread in public any 
further. If you want to debate the topic, we can go to 
http://www.takeitoffline.com. Yes, the site is real, and it does what 
you think it does.

-Khan


Khan Klatt                                         khan@mediaaccess.com

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