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-----Original Message-----
From: The Boston Celtics Mailing List Digest <Celtics-Digest-Owner@igtc.com>
To: Celtics-Digest@igtc.com <Celtics-Digest@igtc.com>
Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 1:05 PM
Subject: The Boston Celtics Mailing List Digest V5 #235
>
>The Boston Celtics Mailing List Digest
> Thursday, July 2 1998 Volume 05 : Number 235
>
>
>
>In this issue:
>
> PS on Nellie
> '98-99
> Re: bye-bye antoine
> Re: PS on Nellie
> RE: Those nasty owners picking on those poor players....
> Get Out of town 'Toine
> Re: PS on Nellie
> Re: 17 Posts in 3 days!!!
> Re: Get Out of town 'Toine
> Re: PS on Nellie
> Re: Those nasty owners picking on those poor players....
> Re: 17 Posts in 3 days!!!
> Re: Get Out of town 'Toine
> Thank God for Classic Sports Network
> Re: PS on Nellie
> Celtic's stock
> Re: Those nasty owners picking on those poor players....
> Re: 17 Posts in 3 days!!!
> Re: PS on Nellie
> Re: Get Out of town 'Toine
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:25:27 -0600
>From: "Gene Kirkpatrick" <gkir@tjc.tyler.cc.tx.us>
>Subject: PS on Nellie
>
>Sorry if my post on Nellie went out twice yesterday; I'm getting the
>hang of a new Groupwise.
>Today three Dallas talk-show hosts were at it at 7 a.m., fawning over
>Nellie and his coup. They also like him because of his accessibility
>and attitude; they think Dallas is on the way up with Nowitski and
>Nash. They will be better.
>
>But I question whether a tough Traylor would not help them more.
>Anyway, Nowitski can be better than Schrempf and still something less
>than sliced bread. I await a two year comparison of what he brings to
>the Mavs and what Pierce brings to the Celts. I just don't think 6'
>ll" small forwards from Europe are the answer. But I wish Nellie
>well.
>
>Gene (average high temps for June were somewhere around 133
>degrees)
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:42:51 -0600
>From: "Gene Kirkpatrick" <gkir@tjc.tyler.cc.tx.us>
>Subject: '98-99
>
>Put me down for October 12. That's very optimistic.
>
>I would also like to predict that Popeye Jones will be our "poor
>man's MVP" for the year. Nothing spectacular, but 8-10 rebounds and
>some points along with tough defense, with adequate backup by DeClerq
>and Ellison (it could happen). Put me down for 45 victories.
>
>But, we could very possibly be without Anderson (knee) and Walker
>(insanity). If so, we're back to 25 victories and a decent lottery
>pick. Altho' a long lockout may help Kenny heal, it will force
>decisions on Antoine into a compressed and stressed time frame. I
>suspect the tenor of things will be to make an example of those
>players seeking Garnett or Shaq level money, so unless Falk counsels
>Antoine to settle, we may have a problem. Do you think other teams
>will hold the line, given the chance to trade for Antoine? Or, if he
>stays and is unhappy, will we still have to deal him for the sake of
>the team?
>
>And I'm an optimist.
>
>Gene (bored; it's already 125 degrees at 8:30 a.m.--do you think I
>may be calculating that celcius thing wrong?)
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 9:52:14 EDT
>From: John Shepherd <shepherd@hpwarmn.an.hp.com>
>Subject: Re: bye-bye antoine
>
>i take exception to the opinion we should trade antoine. i agree
>he is a stupid kid, as most millionaire 22 year olds are. when they
>start to grow up is when it is time to win, to make the playoffs.
>toine has the talent to be part of that. winning will make him a team
player,
>and a veteran winner as a role model wouldnt hurt. toine hasnt had to pay
>his dues yet. not everyone starts out mature like grant hill.
>
>the celtics must quit posturing about growing a young nucleus and develop a
>team chemistry that has experience and youth. too much smoke about
available
>talent just out of our reach. i think pitino knows the bottom line too
well
>and when he locks in overpriced average players, he can say there is no
money
>to buy a veteran winner as a team leader. do you really think knight was
>an accident. i think pitino knew exactly what he was getting, and it was a
>profitable business deal because he wouldnt have to open the checkbook for
>a blockbuster deal. he would say, correctly, knight didnt work out and we
>dont have enough money to improve the team, and no one will take knight in
a
>trade. yet he still sells out the fleet center. this is poor player
>management but very good business. i like antoine. he is a competitive
kid
>who needs leadership, and motivation. motivation comes from having a legit
>chance to win, and leadership comes from someone who knows how to get it
done.
>couldnt you see sir charles teaching toine. i will get down from the
soapbox
>and you can stop laughing.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 06:53:32 PDT
>From: "Witch Craft" <witchcraft1998@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: PS on Nellie
>
>People on this news list are deluding themselves if they think Paul
>Pierce has a long term future with the C's. There's no such thing as
>long-term with Trader Rick at the helm. The fact that Pierce didn't
>come to Boston, should offer some clues as to Pitino's thinking.
>Don't be shocked listeros if both Antoine and Paul are elsewhere when
>the lockout concludes.
>WC
>
>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:25:27 -0600
>>From: "Gene Kirkpatrick" <gkir@tjc.tyler.cc.tx.us>
>>To: celtics@igtc.COM
>>Subject: PS on Nellie
>>
>>Sorry if my post on Nellie went out twice yesterday; I'm getting the
>>hang of a new Groupwise.
>>Today three Dallas talk-show hosts were at it at 7 a.m., fawning over
>>Nellie and his coup. They also like him because of his accessibility
>>and attitude; they think Dallas is on the way up with Nowitski and
>>Nash. They will be better.
>>
>>But I question whether a tough Traylor would not help them more.
>>Anyway, Nowitski can be better than Schrempf and still something less
>>than sliced bread. I await a two year comparison of what he brings to
>>the Mavs and what Pierce brings to the Celts. I just don't think 6'
>>ll" small forwards from Europe are the answer. But I wish Nellie
>>well.
>>
>>Gene (average high temps for June were somewhere around 133
>>degrees)
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 07:21:27 PDT
>From: "Jim Meninno" <jim_meninno@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: Those nasty owners picking on those poor players....
>
>>> [Meninno, James A.] Working for a living is not injustice.
>>
>>Yes but ending up crippled thanks to any job is. I don't support the
>>military when they expose soldiers to pathogens and nerve gas. I don't
>>support mine owners when the subject miners to intolerable conditions.
>And I
>>don't support the owners when they try to bushwhack the players.
>
>Let's not be ridiculous here. The NBA is not injuring these players,
>basketball is. If they don't want to take the risk, don't play the
>game. I didn't blame my college when I tore my acl in an intramural
>game.
>
>>
>>> If athletes
>>> don't want to end up with physical problems, they're in the wrong
>>> career.
>>
>>Very true. But my original point was that since the players are subject
>to
>>physical injury on the job, why not give them the portion of the
>profits
>>they deserve?
>
>They DO get a portion of the profits. They get over half of the
>revenues. The owners pay other expenses, as have been noted, like
>building arenas, private jets, meal money....
>
>>
>>> But my point remains. This is irrelevant when discussing
>>> market value. Like any job, if your employer can't make a profit,
>you
>>> won't have a job much longer.
>>
>>Unless you work in a collective.
>
>Sorry, Noah, but calling yourself Socialist will not stop the bill
>collectors from coming when the jet or the arena payment is due.
>
>>
>>> [Meninno, James A.] So you're saying the owners are right to take
>>> action to control the increase in player salaries? Good, I'm glad
>>> you're seeing sense now.
>>
>>No I want them to excercise restraint on their own. We have reason to
>>believe(since the owners won't open their books) that the owners aren't
>>losing money like they say they are. They're just using this as
>leverage to
>>take more for themselves. They're just trying to impose a new cap in
>order
>>to solidify their control of the leagues profits. They're hardly losing
>>money(at least as much) as they claim.
>
>So, this is their way of exercising restraint.
>
>>
>>
>>> [Meninno, James A.] I think you mean that the pie will be the same
>>> size, there's just fewer slices to share.
>>
>>You're right. Correction taken.
>>
>>> I have a hard time believing
>>> that the players would do a very good job of marketing and
>administering
>>> the league.
>>
>>That's what consultants are for.
>
>They work for free, do they?
>
>>
>>> That might not be a terrible thing from a basketball point
>>> of view (there's far too much marketing now) but from your
>perspective
>>> of getting the player 'his fair share' I think it might be counter
>>> productive. Maybe you were right after all. The pie would be
>smaller.
>>
>>I like your point about the marketing.
>> Yes the pie would be smaller, but even if the pie were half what it
>was
>>before the players would still be getting about as much as they are
>now.
>
>Wrong, wrong, wrong. The players already get over half the pie. If you
>give them the whole pie they would have to use the rest for airplanes,
>hotels, meals, arenas, these consultants you want to hire.... Unless
>they can maintain the same revenues and do these things as efficiently
>as the current arrangement does, they will lose money compared to their
>current situation. That is the risk I'm talking about. Losing money
>might not seem like a big deal to you, because you seem to be a
>socialist, but I don't think the players share the 'good of the group'
>mentality.
>
>>
>>> [Meninno, James A.] Let me see? A player's salary = team
>performance.
>>> So Antoine should make the same as Bruce Bowen, right? Your
>>> will have players on the same team fighting over who is more
>important
>>> and contributes more to the team. Want to judge it objectively and
>just
>>> look at the stats? That would create all sorts of conflicts over
>>> playing time and shots. Imagine coaching a team that was rewarded
>that
>>> way!
>>
>>And players already aren't that way? Look at how players play in
>contract
>>years. I doubt the conflict would be much different at all.
>>
>
>Now they have the team to negotiate with. You would have them fighting
>with each other about these things. A very, very bad idea for a group
>as immature as NBA players.
>
>
>
>>
>>> [Meninno, James A.] I don't see players wanting to take the risk.
>They
>>> have guaranteed contracts now and most players don't want to accept
>less
>>> for the good of the team, even if the possibility of greater cash
>exists
>>> down the road, when the team is successful.
>>
>>I do. Yes they do have guaranteed contracts but those contracts aren't
>>nearly as much as the money available. Unless the player's consultants
>made
>>some extremely foolish mistakes they players would stand to gain more.
>
>See above. If they can't increase revenue or cut costs there's only the
>owner's profit to be had, whatever that is. Could be a loss this year,
>depending on who you believe. And that would be at considerable risk.
>No. There's no way they would be interested in that in the slightest.
>
>>
>>> How would you ever get
>>> players to play for the Clippers then?
>>
>>Easy it's a players league. They can remold the clips however they want
>to.
>>The only people who can mismanage it are the players. I doubt they
>could do
>>anywhere near as badly as Donald Sterling.
>
>Please. Your plan doesn't add quality players to the league. There
>will still be awful teams, and since that will mean the players on them
>are paid poorly, you would have a very hard time convincing anyone to
>play for them.
>
>>
>>> OK, we'll get rid of the crappy
>>> expansion teams. Yeah, the players would love that. How many of
>them
>>> would you like to put out of work?
>>
>>We wouldn't. See my early response.
>
>See mine.
>
>Jim
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:37:57 -0400
>From: "Anthony Alaimo" <nimrod@lamere.net>
>Subject: Get Out of town 'Toine
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BDA5A5.7A54B300
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>- ----Original Message------
>
>> It really sounds to me that Antione is trying to distance himself from =
>the
>>Celtics and he has been like that all along. Whether its before a game
>>stretching by himself or ignoring an attempt to congradulate by a =
>teammate.
>> I always put this aside thinking it was just me but now I think very
>>different, the KID is maybe the most selfish player I have ever seen =
>where
>>green, he might have talent but with that kind of attitude he should be =
>cut
>>loose, for whoever.
>- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
=
>- ------------------------
>I find this a remark of my feelings on Walker. I think he is the =
>biggest jerk and i don't
>care if everone gets pissed at me for saying this!!!!! I think not =
>stretching with a "team", and i quote team, is called I don't know, =
>maybe UNSPORTSMAN-LIKE!!!!!!!! A team is supposed to look organized and =
>team means together, not just 1 player by himself.
>And another thing, he does his little wiggle after a great play, it =
>was kinda funny the first time but now it makes me sick and i wish they =
>would unload him possibly in a trade w/ another player for olwakandi =
>(WISH), but it looks like we'll have him for a while cause of the damn =
>lockout.....=20
>
>*LOL*
>
> -Anthony
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BDA5A5.7A54B300
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>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
><HTML>
><HEAD>
>
><META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
>http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
><META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV>----Original Message------</DIV>
><DIV><BR>> It really sounds to me that Antione is trying to distance =
>himself=20
>from the<BR>>Celtics and he has been like that all along. =
>Whether its=20
>before a game<BR>>stretching by himself or ignoring an attempt to=20
>congradulate by a teammate.<BR>> I always put this aside thinking it =
>was just=20
>me but now I think very<BR>>different, the KID is maybe the most =
>selfish=20
>player I have ever seen where<BR>>green, he might have talent but =
>with that=20
>kind of attitude he should be cut<BR>>loose, for=20
>whoever.<BR>-------------------------------------------------------------=
>- ------------------------------------</DIV>
><DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"" size=3D3>I find this a remark of my =
>feelings on=20
>Walker. I think he is the biggest jerk and i don't</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"" size=3D3>care if everone gets =
>pissed at me for=20
>saying this!!!!! I think not stretching with a "team", =
>and i=20
>quote team, is called I don't know, maybe UNSPORTSMAN-LIKE!!!!!!!! A =
>team is=20
>supposed to look organized and team means together, not just 1 player by =
>
>himself.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D3>And another thing, he does his =
>little wiggle=20
>after a great play, it was kinda funny the first time but now it =
>makes me=20
>sick and i wish they would unload him possibly in a trade w/ another =
>player for=20
>olwakandi (WISH), but it looks like we'll have him for a while cause of =
>the damn=20
>lockout.....</FONT><FONT face=3D"" size=3D3> </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D3>*LOL*</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D3> -Anthony</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BDA5A5.7A54B300--
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 07:38:00 PDT
>From: "Jim Meninno" <jim_meninno@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: PS on Nellie
>
>Maybe so, maybe not. Pierce is close to Mercer in style, but I think it
>was better to pick the best player available than to try to fill a need
>with an inferior one (Mohammed). In any case, I think Rick's trigger
>finger will quiet down as we get better. After years of ineffective
>rebuilding I think most people can live with some changes for a while,
>if it seems to be yielding results.
>
>Jim
>
>>From: "Witch Craft" <witchcraft1998@hotmail.com>
>>To: gkir@tjc.tyler.cc.tx.us, celtics@igtc.COM
>>Subject: Re: PS on Nellie
>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 06:53:32 PDT
>>
>>People on this news list are deluding themselves if they think Paul
>>Pierce has a long term future with the C's. There's no such thing as
>>long-term with Trader Rick at the helm. The fact that Pierce didn't
>>come to Boston, should offer some clues as to Pitino's thinking.
>>Don't be shocked listeros if both Antoine and Paul are elsewhere when
>>the lockout concludes.
>>WC
>>
>>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:25:27 -0600
>>>From: "Gene Kirkpatrick" <gkir@tjc.tyler.cc.tx.us>
>>>To: celtics@igtc.COM
>>>Subject: PS on Nellie
>>>
>>>Sorry if my post on Nellie went out twice yesterday; I'm getting the
>>>hang of a new Groupwise.
>>>Today three Dallas talk-show hosts were at it at 7 a.m., fawning over
>>>Nellie and his coup. They also like him because of his accessibility
>>>and attitude; they think Dallas is on the way up with Nowitski and
>>>Nash. They will be better.
>>>
>>>But I question whether a tough Traylor would not help them more.
>>>Anyway, Nowitski can be better than Schrempf and still something less
>>>than sliced bread. I await a two year comparison of what he brings to
>>>the Mavs and what Pierce brings to the Celts. I just don't think 6'
>>>ll" small forwards from Europe are the answer. But I wish Nellie
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Gene (average high temps for June were somewhere around 133
>>>degrees)
>>>
>>
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:28:43 -0700
>From: "Greg Odegaard" <gmodegaa@longvred.rmc.com>
>Subject: Re: 17 Posts in 3 days!!!
>
>This certainly is a discussion group, but in 3 1/2 days worth of posts out
>of 125 odd total posts you my son have 25 or 1/5. No one else has 10 if I
>am counting right.
>Too much free time on my hands, could be, but at least try to consolidate
>your numerous one comment punch lines to a single post. In many of your
>posts you either question one point or 8, 10 or more. What a bore. Lastly
>I assume few of us care about every nitpicking detail you call a poster out
>on in some attempt to be a palimentary procedure policeman. Just once I
>would like to see you have an original idea, not just responding to details
>you disagree with. In all 25 posts you haven't been original once.
>Curious, no? "Noah The Re: King"
>
>Once again you have a right to post, just consolidate or keep it to a dull
>roar. One might think I would be taken to task for being so critical, but
>Noah you are the first, with 8 folks posting me direct that they wish you
>would lay off the pulp fiction novels.
>
>Now in the spirit of the Independence Day weekend, and your inaliable right
>to freedom of speech, have a great holiday,
>Greg
>
>- ----------
>> From: Noah P. Evans <ishbak@conknet.com>
>> To: Greg Odegaard <gmodegaa@longvred.rmc.com>; celtics@igtc.COM
>> Subject: RE: 17 Posts in 3 days!!!
>> Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 12:21 AM
>>
>> Isn't this the Celtics *discussion* group? While I, personally, as well
>as
>> others have spawned a large amount of messages recently, I think that our
>> points are also cogent and well thought out. While no-one is stopping you
>> from deleting the messages from our discussion, I think we should have
>the
>> right to post them.
>>
>> Noah
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 07:56:54 PDT
>From: "Jim Meninno" <jim_meninno@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Get Out of town 'Toine
>
>>From: "Anthony Alaimo" <nimrod@lamere.net>
>>To: <Celtics@igtc.COM>
>>Subject: Get Out of town 'Toine
>>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:37:57 -0400
>>
>>----Original Message------
>>
>>> It really sounds to me that Antione is trying to distance himself
>from =
>>the
>>>Celtics and he has been like that all along. Whether its before a
>game
>>>stretching by himself or ignoring an attempt to congradulate by a =
>>teammate.
>>> I always put this aside thinking it was just me but now I think very
>>>different, the KID is maybe the most selfish player I have ever seen =
>>where
>>>green, he might have talent but with that kind of attitude he should
>be =
>>cut
>>>loose, for whoever.
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>------------------------
>>I find this a remark of my feelings on Walker. I think he is the =
>>biggest jerk and i don't
>>care if everone gets pissed at me for saying this!!!!! I think not =
>>stretching with a "team", and i quote team, is called I don't know, =
>>maybe UNSPORTSMAN-LIKE!!!!!!!! A team is supposed to look organized and
>=
>>team means together, not just 1 player by himself.
>>And another thing, he does his little wiggle after a great play, it =
>>was kinda funny the first time but now it makes me sick and i wish they
>=
>>would unload him possibly in a trade w/ another player for olwakandi =
>>(WISH), but it looks like we'll have him for a while cause of the damn
>=
>>lockout.....=20
>>
>>*LOL*
>>====================================================================
>I don't think we need to go down this road again. We've discussed the
>wiggle to death over the last year. As far as his stretching with the
>team or not, let's not take a comment like that in an anonymous post to
>be gospel truth. Nothing I have heard before now suggests that Antoine
>distances himself from the team. Quite the contrary, I've seen him
>celebrating with others and waving towels often, especially with his
>Kentuky pals.
>Jim
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:09:01 -0700
>From: "Icarus" <skmishra@sprintmail.com>
>Subject: Re: PS on Nellie
>
>If RP trades Antoine, he and the C's will take terrific PR hit. In fact
both
>RP and Gaston will have to borrow some of Walkers moves to wiggle out
>of that one..won't that be ironic?
>
> RP has to still prove that Anderson is the real deal, because the news is
>that the knee isn't healing fast enough. If that's the case then he has 7
>mill
>dollar Ellison clone on his hands.
>
>Regarding ierce, it would be stupid to trade him because whener the
>CBA gets settled, the rookie contracts are going to get extended to atleast
>5
>years.
> - Mishra
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Witch Craft <witchcraft1998@hotmail.com>
>
>
>>People on this news list are deluding themselves if they think Paul
>>Pierce has a long term future with the C's. There's no such thing as
>>long-term with Trader Rick at the helm. The fact that Pierce didn't
>>come to Boston, should offer some clues as to Pitino's thinking.
>>Don't be shocked listeros if both Antoine and Paul are elsewhere when
>>the lockout concludes.
>>WC
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:09:18 -0500
>From: Sherry & Hart <hartleyo@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Those nasty owners picking on those poor players....
>
>Hey Jim,
>
>Why are you wasting your time trying to have a legitimate discussion
>with a socialist, I am sure you probably know that you will not change
>his mind no matter how logical you make it. Logic never made sense to a
>socialist, since all they know is to put their grubby little hands out
>and say "gimme, gimme, and gimme some more. Their track record around
>the world in running countries is just phenomenal. Did you ever wonder;
>if the business community in the U.S. was so bad why they(socialists)
>stick around to be a party to it. If it was up to them all businesse
>would be owned by gov't and most of us know that the gov't can't run
>anything properly let alone a profit making business.
>Why am I on this tangent? I really rather read about absurd basketball
>trades and messages from all the Antoine haters.
>Regards,
>Hart
>
>Jim Meninno wrote:
>>
>> >> [Meninno, James A.] Working for a living is not injustice.
>> >
>> >Yes but ending up crippled thanks to any job is. I don't support the
>> >military when they expose soldiers to pathogens and nerve gas. I don't
>> >support mine owners when the subject miners to intolerable conditions.
>> And I
>> >don't support the owners when they try to bushwhack the players.
>>
>> Let's not be ridiculous here. The NBA is not injuring these players,
>> basketball is. If they don't want to take the risk, don't play the
>> game. I didn't blame my college when I tore my acl in an intramural
>> game.
>>
>> >
>> >> If athletes
>> >> don't want to end up with physical problems, they're in the wrong
>> >> career.
>> >
>> >Very true. But my original point was that since the players are subject
>> to
>> >physical injury on the job, why not give them the portion of the
>> profits
>> >they deserve?
>>
>> They DO get a portion of the profits. They get over half of the
>> revenues. The owners pay other expenses, as have been noted, like
>> building arenas, private jets, meal money....
>>
>> >
>> >> But my point remains. This is irrelevant when discussing
>> >> market value. Like any job, if your employer can't make a profit,
>> you
>> >> won't have a job much longer.
>> >
>> >Unless you work in a collective.
>>
>> Sorry, Noah, but calling yourself Socialist will not stop the bill
>> collectors from coming when the jet or the arena payment is due.
>>
>> >
>> >> [Meninno, James A.] So you're saying the owners are right to take
>> >> action to control the increase in player salaries? Good, I'm glad
>> >> you're seeing sense now.
>> >
>> >No I want them to excercise restraint on their own. We have reason to
>> >believe(since the owners won't open their books) that the owners aren't
>> >losing money like they say they are. They're just using this as
>> leverage to
>> >take more for themselves. They're just trying to impose a new cap in
>> order
>> >to solidify their control of the leagues profits. They're hardly losing
>> >money(at least as much) as they claim.
>>
>> So, this is their way of exercising restraint.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> [Meninno, James A.] I think you mean that the pie will be the same
>> >> size, there's just fewer slices to share.
>> >
>> >You're right. Correction taken.
>> >
>> >> I have a hard time believing
>> >> that the players would do a very good job of marketing and
>> administering
>> >> the league.
>> >
>> >That's what consultants are for.
>>
>> They work for free, do they?
>>
>> >
>> >> That might not be a terrible thing from a basketball point
>> >> of view (there's far too much marketing now) but from your
>> perspective
>> >> of getting the player 'his fair share' I think it might be counter
>> >> productive. Maybe you were right after all. The pie would be
>> smaller.
>> >
>> >I like your point about the marketing.
>> > Yes the pie would be smaller, but even if the pie were half what
it
>> was
>> >before the players would still be getting about as much as they are
>> now.
>>
>> Wrong, wrong, wrong. The players already get over half the pie. If you
>> give them the whole pie they would have to use the rest for airplanes,
>> hotels, meals, arenas, these consultants you want to hire.... Unless
>> they can maintain the same revenues and do these things as efficiently
>> as the current arrangement does, they will lose money compared to their
>> current situation. That is the risk I'm talking about. Losing money
>> might not seem like a big deal to you, because you seem to be a
>> socialist, but I don't think the players share the 'good of the group'
>> mentality.
>>
>> >
>> >> [Meninno, James A.] Let me see? A player's salary = team
>> performance.
>> >> So Antoine should make the same as Bruce Bowen, right? Your
>> >> will have players on the same team fighting over who is more
>> important
>> >> and contributes more to the team. Want to judge it objectively and
>> just
>> >> look at the stats? That would create all sorts of conflicts over
>> >> playing time and shots. Imagine coaching a team that was rewarded
>> that
>> >> way!
>> >
>> >And players already aren't that way? Look at how players play in
>> contract
>> >years. I doubt the conflict would be much different at all.
>> >
>>
>> Now they have the team to negotiate with. You would have them fighting
>> with each other about these things. A very, very bad idea for a group
>> as immature as NBA players.
>>
>> >
>> >> [Meninno, James A.] I don't see players wanting to take the risk.
>> They
>> >> have guaranteed contracts now and most players don't want to accept
>> less
>> >> for the good of the team, even if the possibility of greater cash
>> exists
>> >> down the road, when the team is successful.
>> >
>> >I do. Yes they do have guaranteed contracts but those contracts aren't
>> >nearly as much as the money available. Unless the player's consultants
>> made
>> >some extremely foolish mistakes they players would stand to gain more.
>>
>> See above. If they can't increase revenue or cut costs there's only the
>> owner's profit to be had, whatever that is. Could be a loss this year,
>> depending on who you believe. And that would be at considerable risk.
>> No. There's no way they would be interested in that in the slightest.
>>
>> >
>> >> How would you ever get
>> >> players to play for the Clippers then?
>> >
>> >Easy it's a players league. They can remold the clips however they want
>> to.
>> >The only people who can mismanage it are the players. I doubt they
>> could do
>> >anywhere near as badly as Donald Sterling.
>>
>> Please. Your plan doesn't add quality players to the league. There
>> will still be awful teams, and since that will mean the players on them
>> are paid poorly, you would have a very hard time convincing anyone to
>> play for them.
>>
>> >
>> >> OK, we'll get rid of the crappy
>> >> expansion teams. Yeah, the players would love that. How many of
>> them
>> >> would you like to put out of work?
>> >
>> >We wouldn't. See my early response.
>>
>> See mine.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:12:28 -0500
>From: Sherry & Hart <hartleyo@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: 17 Posts in 3 days!!!
>
>Hey Greg,
>Couldn't agree with you more.
>Regards,
>Hart
>Greg Odegaard wrote:
>>
>> This certainly is a discussion group, but in 3 1/2 days worth of posts
out
>> of 125 odd total posts you my son have 25 or 1/5. No one else has 10 if
I
>> am counting right.
>> Too much free time on my hands, could be, but at least try to consolidate
>> your numerous one comment punch lines to a single post. In many of your
>> posts you either question one point or 8, 10 or more. What a bore.
Lastly
>> I assume few of us care about every nitpicking detail you call a poster
out
>> on in some attempt to be a palimentary procedure policeman. Just once I
>> would like to see you have an original idea, not just responding to
details
>> you disagree with. In all 25 posts you haven't been original once.
>> Curious, no? "Noah The Re: King"
>>
>> Once again you have a right to post, just consolidate or keep it to a
dull
>> roar. One might think I would be taken to task for being so critical,
but
>> Noah you are the first, with 8 folks posting me direct that they wish you
>> would lay off the pulp fiction novels.
>>
>> Now in the spirit of the Independence Day weekend, and your inaliable
right
>> to freedom of speech, have a great holiday,
>> Greg
>>
>> ----------
>> > From: Noah P. Evans <ishbak@conknet.com>
>> > To: Greg Odegaard <gmodegaa@longvred.rmc.com>; celtics@igtc.COM
>> > Subject: RE: 17 Posts in 3 days!!!
>> > Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 12:21 AM
>> >
>> > Isn't this the Celtics *discussion* group? While I, personally, as well
>> as
>> > others have spawned a large amount of messages recently, I think that
our
>> > points are also cogent and well thought out. While no-one is stopping
you
>> > from deleting the messages from our discussion, I think we should have
>> the
>> > right to post them.
>> >
>> > Noah
>> >
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:26:12 PDT
>From: "Jim Meninno" <jim_meninno@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Get Out of town 'Toine
>
>>From: "Anthony Alaimo" <nimrod@lamere.net>
>>To: <Celtics@igtc.COM>
>>Subject: Get Out of town 'Toine
>>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:37:57 -0400
>>
>>----Original Message------
>>
>>> It really sounds to me that Antione is trying to distance himself
>from =
>>the
>>>Celtics and he has been like that all along. Whether its before a
>game
>>>stretching by himself or ignoring an attempt to congradulate by a =
>>teammate.
>>> I always put this aside thinking it was just me but now I think very
>>>different, the KID is maybe the most selfish player I have ever seen =
>>where
>>>green, he might have talent but with that kind of attitude he should
>be =
>>cut
>>>loose, for whoever.
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>------------------------
>>I find this a remark of my feelings on Walker. I think he is the =
>>biggest jerk and i don't
>>care if everone gets pissed at me for saying this!!!!! I think not =
>>stretching with a "team", and i quote team, is called I don't know, =
>>maybe UNSPORTSMAN-LIKE!!!!!!!! A team is supposed to look organized and
>=
>>team means together, not just 1 player by himself.
>>And another thing, he does his little wiggle after a great play, it =
>>was kinda funny the first time but now it makes me sick and i wish they
>=
>>would unload him possibly in a trade w/ another player for olwakandi =
>>(WISH), but it looks like we'll have him for a while cause of the damn
>=
>>lockout.....=20
>>
>>*LOL*
>>====================================================================
>I don't think we need to go down this road again. We've discussed the
>wiggle to death over the last year. As far as his stretching with the
>team or not, let's not take a comment like that in an anonymous post to
>be gospel truth. Nothing I have heard before now suggests that Antoine
>distances himself from the team. Quite the contrary, I've seen him
>celebrating with others and waving towels often, especially with his
>Kentuky pals.
>Jim
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: 02 Jul 98 11:30:45 +0000
>From: Jesse Haley <jesse@wmedia.com>
>Subject: Thank God for Classic Sports Network
>
>Seeing as the current state of the NBA is all about tension, discord,
disagreement, and conflict, is it any wonder that this same tension has
descended on this Celts list? People calling out others, names being thrown
about, the dreaded ALL-CAP swear ridden rants. And in this spirit of
conflict I offer this - anyone who would trade Antoine for an Olowokandi -
please have your head checked. And I pray this offseason isn't extended
because it's already been brutal.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:35:55 -0400 (EDT)
>From: "Aaron B. Dossett" <aarond@ewl.uky.edu>
>Subject: Re: PS on Nellie
>
>> Regarding Pierce, it would be stupid to trade him because whener the
>> CBA gets settled, the rookie contracts are going to get extended to
atleast
>> 5
>> years.
>
>Aren't the current draftees still under the old (current?) system, i.e.
>three years guaranteed?
>
>- -Aaron
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:48:16 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Jeremy <jwarren@eecs.tufts.edu>
>Subject: Celtic's stock
>
> Does anyone know why it has gone down 8.5 points (53%) today?
>Noah and his communist friends must be partying in the streets. It
>appears that wall street doesn't favor the lockout.
>
>Jeremy
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:50:41 -0700
>From: "Greg Odegaard" <gmodegaa@longvred.rmc.com>
>Subject: Re: Those nasty owners picking on those poor players....
>
>Not to make this into some kind of mutual admiration society meeting, but I
>couldn't agree with the Esteemed Mr. Hart more. I only wish I had the
>wisdom and forthought for seeing the true color of the bantor for what it
>really was. And this again in the week of the celebration of the
>Indepedence of our great country, a true Democracy. Sing it with we now;
>God Bless America.
>
>My one take on the CBA mess is that the league, owners players and all
>better watch what they ask for in this matter because they just might get
>it. It is somewhat frustrating and curious to see LB as per the exception
>brought into play on his voting into the HOF, as per Ryan and others he
>played less for the money and actually for game and winning not virtually
>anyother player certainly in the last 15 years. Not to discount folks like
>Malone, Stock, McHale etc.
>
>It is a danger to put the fox in charge of watching the hen house,
>Greg
>
>
>- ----------
>> From: Sherry & Hart <hartleyo@ix.netcom.com>
>> To: Jim Meninno <jim_meninno@hotmail.com>
>> Cc: celtics@igtc.COM
>> Subject: Re: Those nasty owners picking on those poor players....
>> Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 9:09 AM
>>
>> Hey Jim,
>>
>> Why are you wasting your time trying to have a legitimate discussion
>> with a socialist, I am sure you probably know that you will not change
>> his mind no matter how logical you make it. Logic never made sense to a
>> socialist, since all they know is to put their grubby little hands out
>> and say "gimme, gimme, and gimme some more. Their track record around
>> the world in running countries is just phenomenal. Did you ever wonder;
>> if the business community in the U.S. was so bad why they(socialists)
>> stick around to be a party to it. If it was up to them all businesse
>> would be owned by gov't and most of us know that the gov't can't run
>> anything properly let alone a profit making business.
>> Why am I on this tangent? I really rather read about absurd basketball
>> trades and messages from all the Antoine haters.
>> Regards,
>> Hart
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 12:08:03 -0500
>From: Jim Hill <jahill@leasingservice.com>
>Subject: Re: 17 Posts in 3 days!!!
>
>> Am I the only one bothered by the Noah P. Evan online/e-mail internet
>talk
>> show?
>
><Isn't this the Celtics *discussion* group?>
><Noah>
>
>Yes it is and I for one would not want anyone to feel they
>shouldn't/can't participate in any way they want. (With the exception
>of using foul language)
>
>I do not agree with Noah's opinions but he has the right to have and
>discuss them.
>
>I am not aware of any "collective" that is non-religious in it
>founding's, that has ever been successful. Nor do I believe that unions
>are a benefit to society at this stage of societal evolution.
>
><Is the only way to eradicate this syndrome, to eliminate (or at least
>mitigate) economic inequality? That'd be a task for the ages.>
>
>I believe that communism has been proven to be a failure.
>
><Jim
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:17:15 -0700
>From: "Icarus" <skmishra@sprintmail.com>
>Subject: Re: PS on Nellie
>
>No. - Mishra
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Aaron B. Dossett <aarond@ewl.uky.edu>
>
>
>>Aren't the current draftees still under the old (current?) system, i.e.
>>three years guaranteed?
>>
>>-Aaron
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:25:44 -0400
>From: "Anthony Alaimo" <nimrod@lamere.net>
>Subject: Re: Get Out of town 'Toine
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Meninno <jim_meninno@hotmail.com>
>To: Celtics@igtc.COM <Celtics@igtc.COM>; nimrod@lamere.net
><nimrod@lamere.net>
>Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 10:56 AM
>Subject: Re: Get Out of town 'Toine
>
>
>>
>>
>>>From: "Anthony Alaimo" <nimrod@lamere.net>
>>>To: <Celtics@igtc.COM>
>>>Subject: Get Out of town 'Toine
>>>Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:37:57 -0400
>>>
>>>----Original Message------
>>>
>>>> It really sounds to me that Antione is trying to distance himself
>>from =
>>>the
>>>>Celtics and he has been like that all along. Whether its before a
>>game
>>>>stretching by himself or ignoring an attempt to congradulate by a =
>>>teammate.
>>>> I always put this aside thinking it was just me but now I think very
>>>>different, the KID is maybe the most selfish player I have ever seen =
>>>where
>>>>green, he might have talent but with that kind of attitude he should
>>be =
>>>cut
>>>>loose, for whoever.
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
=
>>>------------------------
>>>I find this a remark of my feelings on Walker. I think he is the =
>>>biggest jerk and i don't
>>>care if everone gets pissed at me for saying this!!!!! I think not =
>>>stretching with a "team", and i quote team, is called I don't know, =
>>>maybe UNSPORTSMAN-LIKE!!!!!!!! A team is supposed to look organized and
>>=
>>>team means together, not just 1 player by himself.
>>>And another thing, he does his little wiggle after a great play, it =
>>>was kinda funny the first time but now it makes me sick and i wish they
>>=
>>>would unload him possibly in a trade w/ another player for olwakandi =
>>>(WISH), but it looks like we'll have him for a while cause of the damn
>>=
>>>lockout.....=20
>>>
>>>*LOL*
>>>====================================================================
>>I don't think we need to go down this road again. We've discussed the
>>wiggle to death over the last year. As far as his stretching with the
>>team or not, let's not take a comment like that in an anonymous post to
>>be gospel truth. Nothing I have heard before now suggests that Antoine
>>distances himself from the team. Quite the contrary, I've seen him
>>celebrating with others and waving towels often, especially with his
>>Kentuky pals.
>>Jim
>- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>- -----------------------
>Yes i have often seen that too with the waving towels and stuff, but he
>should also not
>try to hog the spotlight.
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of The Boston Celtics Mailing List Digest V5 #235
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