Re: Bill Huffy Puffy (was Re: Dunlop SP 5000's vs Eagle GA's.

[Khan Klatt <khan@mediaaccess.com>]

At 4:14 PM -0500 03/16/2000, Bill Hussey wrote:

>For those of you who forget, it was Khan and I who originally had the "GA's
>do/don't suck" argument which turned into the "AWD/FWD/RWD" argument.  Reading
>his posts, he makes it painfully obvious that he has no idea what he 
>is talking about, PAINFULLY.  He says some shit that fucking floors 
>me, an absolutely perfect example is, "although I am convinced that 
>AWD is the best-- otherwise, why did BMW put their AWD into the X5 
>is RWD is so superior?" .... what kinda of horrifyingly stupid 
>bullshit is that?!  You think BMW cares that some magazine doesn't 
>think the X5 is good for offroading??  It's a marketing move, the 
>average SUV owner never goes offroad, but then again, the average 
>SUV owner bought one just to have a big vehicle with 4WD cause it 
>sounds cool and it depicts a "tough" image.  Leaving an AWD or 4WD 
>out of the package would depict a "wimpy" image and the majority of 
>the SUV buying market would pass it up.

I will let my words and reputation speak for whether or not I know 
what I'm talking about. Often enough I have been wrong, and have 
admitted when it has been amply shown that I am wrong. I am NOT 
stubborn enough to know that I can admit when I am wrong. You have 
not convinced me of that yet, however.

Also, the half dozen messages mentioning how my words were helpful, 
or corroborated by others with the same experience speaks towards the 
fact that my statements regarding the Dunlop SP5000's being an 
improvement over stock are NOT invalid or inaccurate.

My message was very thorough and detailed. I made it clear that I was 
comparing Dunlop SP5000's with zero miles to Eagle GA's with 31,000 
miles on them. These were the observations that I made:

* Ride Comfort: The SP5000's are MUCH superior to the GA's that I just had.
* Cornering. MUCH superior in this area.
* Acceleration In A Straight Line. The GA's would slip. The SP5000's 
are superior (but not MUCH superior) in this area.
* Uphill Acceleration. In one problem area, the GA's would spin in 
the first three gears, up to 50mph. With the SP5000's there is VERY 
little slippage. The 5000's are MUCH superior to the GA's in this 
regard. It has nothing to do with RWD vs. FWD vs. AWD. The tires were 
the problem.
* Braking. No perceivable difference/not tested.
* Wet Performance. Cornering in the wet is better. But not enough 
experience to talk about hydroplaning. The GA's were horrible in that 
regard. We'll see about the 5000's.
* I had difficulty getting up this lightly sprinkled hill with the 
GA's. Snow season's over so I can't tell about the SP5000's.
* Tread Wear. Too little data to tell. I'll let you know when the 
Dunlops are at 30000 miles, and compare them to the GA's.



To address your comment about the X5:

First of all, the X5 is built on a unibody frame, not on a truck 
frame, like, say the Jeep Grand Cherokee, or a Ford Explorer. In that 
regard, it is no more or less off road than a Honda "CRV". The BMW X5 
is, like it's name implies, a "Sport Activity Vehicle", but it isn't 
a sport utility vehicle. The Lexus 4WD car falls into the same 
category.

It is clearly trying to compete against the likes of the Lexus 4WD 
vehicle. Their marketing makes it clear that they are pitching the 
car to people who want a performance oriented "SAV".

>You wanna bring up BMW ... let's talk about all of their sports sedans and
>coupes, which is practically every car they make (even the 7-series 
>handles well ... seeing them at the track with an experienced driver 
>behind the wheel is rather impressing), they are ALLLLLLLLLLLLL 
>REAR WHEEL DRIVE.  It is the essense of sport, it is what racing 
>cars is all about, and it is the best
>handling/easiest to control of all driveline layouts.

Look, all I'm saying is, if RWD is so absolutely awesome and the 
answer to everything, why didn't they put their system in the X5? 
Your answer is that it is marketing. To me, it makes more sense to 
put the advertising money in why RWD is superior to AWD in X5.


Now, listen carefully, because I'm going to state my views in such a 
qualified way that you can't really disagree with it:

IN THE REALM OF SPORTS CARS:

It's fairly good proof to point to carmakers such as BMW, Porsche, as 
well as American high-performance automobiles, as to the benefit in 
rear wheel drive. In terms of performance, and control in the hands 
of highly experienced race drivers, rear wheel drive may be a 
significant advantage. Otherwise, why would BMW, Porsche, Dodge 
Vipers, Corvettes, etc. be all RWD?


IN THE REALM OF STREET CARS:

In SUV's and SAV's, CRV's or whatever you want to call them this 
week, 4WD is seen as important. From a marketing standpoint, you say 
that the X5 may not sell without having AWD/4WD. Why? Well, to some 
people in the market, I would argue, there is a benefit to having all 
four wheels on the ground, contributing to stability in the direction 
the car is moving. There is a market out there-- meaning there are 
drivers out there that do NOT want to get the back out on their cars. 
They want the rear wheels to follow where their front wheels are 
pointed, at all times. These buyers will by 4WD.


There are also those who swear by RWD, and it's fairly clear (that 
unless you are in the high-end sports car/racing enthusiast, above) 
that you are one of them. These are typically performance oriented 
folks, who want the ability to "get the back out" when they want to, 
or like the looks of these typically muscle car looking fat (wide) 
back wheel cars.


And there are those that swear by the benefits of FWD. Typically 
these are people who state that it doesn't make a big difference FOR 
THEM, and that if FWD is cheaper than RWD, who cares, because they 
don't see a difference in their driving.



I'm not talking about the fact that, between a Porsche Carrera 4 and 
a Porsche Carrera, that the PC4 outperforms the PC. Sure, I can buy 
that-- by being able to manipulate the car through turns, perhaps the 
PC drivers can outperform the PC4 drivers. (But note the performance 
difference isn't staggering-- only slight)

All I'm saying is that nobody on this list that I'm aware of, drives 
their car SO hard that they would see the difference in performance 
between a 4WD version of their car and the current version of their 
car.

However, just like you wear your seat belt 365 days a year even 
though you don't get into an accident on the ordinary day, some 
people prefer the safety aspects of 4WD over 2WD. If, considering the 
talents of 99.9% of the drivers on this list, there is no performance 
difference between 2WD and 4WD, it makes sense that 4WD is superior 
to RWD or FWD in safety aspects because, in the worst case scenario 
where three wheels have lost their ability to provide acceleration 
through a curve, the fourth wheel in a 4WD vehicle can provide it 
where the 2WD car may not be able to.



So, what I'm saying is, yes, the evidence is there that performance 
oriented vehicles are built RWD. If I already had another car that 
had AWD capability, I'd probably buy a car in this category just for 
"summer driving".

Yet, the majority of street cars are FWD, because they are generally 
lower cost cars, and the loss of the benefit of having RWD or AWD is 
not substantial considering the cost. That is why FWD even exists. 
When I bought my car, I clearly fit into this category,

Finally, there is a segment of the population, AND RIGHTLY SO, who 
are more concerned about AWD conditions, and will buy those kinds of 
cars. These people may or (or may not) live in areas that get a lot 
of adverse weather, or may wish to take their cars off-road. I live 
in an area where I am growing more convinced that my primary car must 
have this capability, so guess what my next car will be equipped with.


And on a personal note, Bill, drop the insults and name calling. It's 
unproductive, it's immature, and completely unnecessary. If anything 
it shows you can't make your point in a more civil manner.

-Khan


Khan Klatt                                         khan@mediaaccess.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Access Internet Solutions, Inc.		      888.750.0777 tel
http://www.mediaaccess.com			      425.519.3741 fax
-----------------------------------------------------------------------