Re: 200 bucks for this!

["Michael & Carmen Keith" <mikeandcarmen@pdq.net>]

That is true.  In such a case as that, the front sway bar reduces understeer
by keeping the car off of its bump stops.  When the car is allowed to run on
its bump stops, roll stiffness increases dramatically because there is no
compliance left in the suspension.  The understeer is caused by this
dramatic increase in roll stiffness.  The correct way to resolve this
problem is to increase roll stiffness at both the front & rear of the car
with stiffer springs so that roll stiffness is increased without affecting
the car's balance.  Sway bars are not meant to increase roll stiffness
although they do to some degree.  They are meant to fine-tune the cars
handling characteristics.  However, when you have to live with the stock
springs, as is the case with stock class autocrossing, the sway bar must be
relied upon to increase roll stiffness.

Conversely, in Matt's case, he has Eibach springs on the car.  These should
increase the roll stiffness of the car substantially.  He should not expect
the addition of a rear sway bar to make that much more of a difference in
roll stiffness because that is not what it was meant to do.  He should,
however, notice reduced understeer.  If he is looking to further increase
roll stiffness, he should install stiffer springs.

I think his expectations of the rear sway bar were a little off; so I tried
to explain to him what sway bars are really for (How'd I do Matt?).  I think
that he should explore how the sway bar has changed the handling balance of
his car before he decides to return it.  However, if Shine Racing sold him
the sway bar under the pretense that it would increase roll stiffness
substantially, then he should send it back because they lied to him.

By the way, I'm glad we're talking cars rather than throwing flames as Matt
had mentioned in his original message.

Later!

Michael Keith
Pasadena, TX
'98 Jetta GLX
'85 Golf SCCA ITB - too much rear sway bar......I think
-----Original Message-----
From: Mitch <mitchman@owt.com>
To: jettaglx@igtc.com <jettaglx@igtc.com>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: 200 bucks for this!


>If the front springs are too soft, on some cars a stiffer front bar will
>REDUCE understeer.  Your theories about sway bars are correct though.  But
>when you add sticky tires to a softly sprung car the front end runs on the
>bump stops in the corners.  This is true with Honda CRX's and Mazda Miata's
>when autocrossed in the stock class with sticky tires.
>
>Just thought you might want to know.
>
>Mitch
>'97 Jetta GLX
>
>
>>I don't have any Shine Racing products myself; so I can't comment from
>>specific experience.  However, I do know that while a rear sway bar should
>>increase roll stiffness to some degree, it won't be as noticeable as a
>>change in the front sway bar.  What you really want from a rear sway bar
is
>>to reduce understeer.  Sway bars are meant to do more than simply increase
>>roll stiffness.  They are meant to fine tune a car's handling, but they
>>actually affect the opposite end of the car.  For instance, to reduce
>>understeer, you add a bigger rear sway bar which promotes oversteer, & if
>>you want to reduce oversteer (which would almost never be the case in our
>>cars), then you would add a bigger front sway bar.  In other words, as you
>>increase the roll stiffness on one end of the car relative to the other
end,
>>grip is actually reduced on the end that you are increasing roll
stiffness.
>>I know this sounds weird, & I don't completely understand it myself.  If
you
>>talk to someone who is well versed in race car setup, he/she could
probably
>>explain it better.
>>
>>A real life example is the understeering problem I am having with my race
>>car.  In order to resolve it, I am going to increase the stiffness of the
>>rear sway bar (it's adjustable).  If that doesn't work, I am actually
going
>>to remove my Neuspeed front sway bar.  If removing the Neuspeed bar from
the
>>front makes the car oversteer excessively, I am either going to put a
stock
>>front sway bar on or dial some of the stiffness out of the rear sway bar.
>>
>>Roll stiffness is not the only measure of good handling, & with all the
>>suspension mods that you already have on the car, I would not expect a
rear
>>sway bar to increase stiffness noticeably.  However, the factory sets our
>>cars up to understeer severely.  Understeering is the handling
>>characteristic most favored by product liability lawyers because it
insures
>>that the car won't spin (unless you really screw up).  Therefore, if you
go
>>out & take that corner that used to make the car plow like a tractor, you
>>should notice that it rotates through that turn considerably better with
the
>>addition of the rear sway bar.
>>
>>Michael Keith
>>Pasadena, TX
>>'98 Jetta GLX
>>'85 Golf SCCA ITB
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: MAOberer@aol.com <MAOberer@aol.com>
>>To: gti-vr6@cobra.ccsi.com <gti-vr6@cobra.ccsi.com>; jettaglx@igtc.com
>><jettaglx@igtc.com>
>>Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:54 AM
>>Subject: 200 bucks for this!
>>
>>
>>>Let the flames begin...
>>> About a week ago, I ordered a Shine rear sway bar for my 95 Jetta GLX.
It
>>>comes in the mail today, I pull it out of the box and its a 3' bar of
metal
>>>with finger sized tubes coming out of both sides (4 total). and 4 bolts.
>>But
>>>I put aside the thought that I just paid two hundred bucks for 20 bucks
>>worth
>>>of metal powdercoated, and installed it.  The installation wasn't too
bad,
>>and
>>>then I headed out for some "spirited" driving.  The bar did help stiffen
a
>>bit
>>>of the steering, but not enough IMO to warrant $200.  I also have on the
>>car
>>>Eibach springs, Bilstein shocks and a nuespeed upper strut bar.  To be
>>honest
>>>with everyone, I wasn't that impressed.  I know you die hard shiners are
>>going
>>>to jump me on this, but I had heard that this Shine bar was the end-all,
>>be-
>>>all of sway bars.  I was looking to reduce body roll in my car, and in my
>>>perception, that did not happen.  All I did was stiifen up a torsion bar
>>for
>>>200 bills.
>>> I'm sorry at the contreversy this is going to cause, but I felt the need
>>to
>>>voice my opinion to the list.  And I will be returning the bar, its just
>>not
>>>worth it.
>>>
>>>thanks,
>>>Matt
>>>95 GLX "let down by a sway bar edition"
>
>
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