Re: Stop. Reverse.

[Ryan W <ubiquitous_am_i@xxxxxxxxx>]

--- Kestutis Kveraga <Kestutis.Kveraga@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> --- You wrote:
> I agree with all you said, Kestas.  But it's not a
> valid form of justifying this trade to say that he
> simply knows more than the rest of us...  In fact,
> isn't that exactly what people say when they act in
> ways that are questioned?
> --- end of quote ---
> 
> Yes, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. I guess he
> could enumerate the various
> ways having Toine on the team was "not a positive
> thing", but people are
> attacking the Celtics brass for dumping on Toine as
> it is. It doesn't help
> anything except our curiosity. I think, for the most
> part, it's an emotional
> reaction to Toine anyway, so arguments aren't going
> persuade his fans. 
> 

True that...and I agree that if he did come out with
"all he knows" it would probably be perceived as
dumping on Antoine...except that's exactly what
they've been doing, albeit indirectly.  So let us have
it, Danny, the whole truth....  Maybe Eggy can help us
out here....she seems to know of the inner workings of
celticland....so Eggy were there any concrete examples
of Toine's bad behavior in the last few weeks that, if
known, would further justify this trade?

> --- You wrote:
> You're right, Kestas, about the logical fallacy
> issue...  It's an interesting thought experiment to
> wonder if every team traded with every other team in
> a
> trade that benefitted each team if the league as a
> whole would improve.  It would seem like it would
> not,
> since the objective talent level would remain the
> same
> regardless of the distribution.  
> --- end of quote ---
> 
> Well, the talent wouldn't improve, but the way it is
> utilized would. 
> It also depends on what is meant by 'talent'. If a
> player is traded to a team
> where he's a much better fit, plays a lot, and
> improves his game, did his
> talent level increase? If that's how you define it,
> you could see a generalized
> increase in talent. 

Talent is innate.  Performance, I beleive, is what
you're talking about and that sometimes has little to
do with talent and more to do with intangibles...  So
yeah, under our hypothetical, the performance of every
team may be better, but the talent would stay the same
(unless through better performance the players were
spurred to improve their talent levels...).
>  
> --- You wrote:
> But of course that's
> not taking into account alot of illogical
> factors...like "chemistry" and what-not...of course,
> if we take into account such illogical concepts as
> "chemistry" then that negates the logical fallacy,
> doesn't it (btw, this is the second post in the last
> couple days where you've pulled out the logical
> fallacy phrase...do you happen to be in a logic
> class,
> by chance?  <snip>
> --- end of quote ---
> 
> Well, someone's reading my posts  :)  No, I've been
> done with classes for years
> now, including graduate courses. But I did take a
> logic class maybe 8 or 9
> years ago.  
> 
>  
> --- You wrote:
> Furthermore, what's the definition of benefit? 
> <snip.> ...he fools
> people, he comes away with the greater benefit by
> making the other team assume incorrectly that they
> are
> receiving a benefit...and isn't that what a barter
> or
> a trade is meant to be....getting people to give you
> what you want by making them want what you have in a
> degree that is disproportionate to what you have. 
> Is
> that not a good trade?  
> --- end of quote ---
> 
> That's an interesting point. But if you always screw
> other GMs, pretty soon
> people will refuse trading with you, no? 

Well, you can't always screw people....unless your
talent evaluation skills are impecable.
However, I do remember a rumor that GMs were afraid to
trade with Auerbach after all the swindles he pulled. 
And you know what?  I think that's a good thing.  I'd
rather have GM's afraid of trading with me than have
them eager to trade with me...plus if I'm always
screwing people, it would mean that I've attained a
nice stockpile of talent, thus obviating the need to
trade.  I'd be like the kid with all the marbles....

> 
> --- You wrote:
> I'm not exactly ruing his loss as much as Danny's
> deficiencies as a GM (i.e., if I were the GM instead
> of Danny, I would have been able to bring out the
> best
> in Antoine...and if I can do it....)
> --- end of quote ---
> 
> I'll assume you're kidding here. 
> Kestas

Well, I wasn't ;)  Maybe I'm naive, but I think a good
leader takes his or her best assests, improves them,
makes them efficient, and puts them in the best
position to succeed.  That's what you'd want from a
boss, right?  Well, Danny didn't do that...he said "my
way or the highway", he created an unhealthy work
environment (see his comments today in the paper where
he says that players need love and that he wasn't able
to give that to Antoine.  And Danny says he didn't
hate Antoine....COME ON), and then blamed Antoine when
it didn't work out.  Good job Danny, you just took
your second best assest and devaulued it through your
own stubborn "leadership" techniques.  That's why I
think Antoine will succeed in Dallas...because he's
working for an owner who actually believes in creating
a healhty work environment (Playstations in every
players locker), who proactively works to improve his
assests, and who cares.  Mark Cuban, for all his bad
press and crazy antics, is above all a person who
knows what it takes to succeed.  When a player sees
the extent to which Mark cares and puts forth the
effort to provide his players with the best
environment in which to succeed, how can they not help
but put forth the extra effort themselves.  That's
what a good leader or coach does, make people better. 
Danny didn't do that.  It's like what Parcells in
doing in Dallas....he's "coaching them up", making
them better than they even thought they could be. 
Regardless of whether one thinks that that could have
been accomplished with Antoine, it still would have
been nice to see it tried first.

Ryan

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