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RE: Celts may be able to pluck a plum
-------------------
> I love Kobe, don't get me wrong, and agree with Mark that the
Celtics should
> mortgage everything this side of Walter Brown's headstone to get
him. But
> let's not get carried away. He's not as good as Michael, even the
late
> version Michael.
You are, of course, correct in this assesmment. The gist of my post
was that at his age he clearly deomnstrates the potential to be as
good or better. Potential is a tricky thing, I admit, but this
assessment of Kobe's potential seems warranted given the available
evidence from his performance and attitude to date.
He's in Michael's league as a scorer, but then so was
> Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins, George Gervin, Larry Joe Bird, and
quite a
> few other players, to say nothing of the great centers.
None of whom were close to Kobe's abilities as an individual defender.
Bird was a great team defender with uncanny sense of how a play might
develop, but I see a great future for Kobe here as well.
He doesn't have
> Michael's physical skills, because he doesn't have Michael's bullish
upper
> body strength, which allowed him to get hammered in mid air and
still get a
> shot off again and again.
? I disagree. The requisite skills for accomplishing that which you
describe are elevtaion and body control much than mere upper body
strength, which, in any case, is a trait which can be developed over
time.
Nor is he a terror in the passing lanes, like
Perhaps. But he is among the best, in my judgement based on what I
have observed, in the league today at this team defense skill. His
anticipation, an essential component for terrorizing passing lanes, is
already in evidence. How savvy in was Jordan in this respect at Kobe's
age? My fundamental premise is that Kobe is further along than others
at a comparable age because of 1) obvious, roughly equal or superior
physical abilities; 2) earlier entry into the league, affording him
more time to improve at an earlier age (which he has demonstrated); 3)
the unique training he was afforded playing as a teenager against
(admittedly less-skilled) professional players in Italy. Better
training at an earlier age, with superior physical skills bodes well
for his future.
> Michael was, nor is he as fundamentally solid as Michael was.
In which areas? At which age? The training Kobe is getting from
Jackson is surely as helpful as that which MJ received from Smith.
Is there
> anything else? As far as him being the best player in the game,
he's up
> there, but I would still rather have Tim Duncan at this point.
Me too. And I would rather have Shaq as well. They are not
"potentially" on the market now. Shaq never will be. There must be
some basis (however remote) for concluding a trade is possible. Heck,
I'd like to have Russell circa 1960, but that just as realistic a
prospect as picking up Shaq or Duncan in the upcoming off-season (FYI:
making a credible run at Duncan when his three-year contract is up
should be our highest single priority, IMO. But that is in the future.
There have
> been a lot of amazingly skilled off-guards in the history of the
league, and
> even if Kobe turns out to be better than Jerry West and John
Havlicek (which
> is a long way coming)
A long way coming? That strikes me as a stretch. Moreover, I am
projecting (admittedly a risky effort) into the future. My core claim
is that in 4-5 years, given what is apparent now, Kobe WILL BE much
better overall than either, no disrespect intended. Additionally,
West, among the sharpest evaluators of talent in the league has
indicated he has little doubt that could well become history's
greatest. Are you suggesting he knows not about which he speaks?
he's still no Michael Jordan at this stage.
I agree.
I will
> say he is without a doubt the top off guard in the league, with
plenty of
> room to grow. And that's scary enough.
We apparently agree here as well.
>
> The reason I'm making this point is that you trade Walker + Pierce +
picks
> for Michael Jordan; you don't trade them for Earl Monroe, Sidney
Moncrief,
> or Pete Maravich. Or do you?
Maybe he won't be MJ, but he is closer than any others I see, and will
be closer to the MJ end of the spectrum than to these others you
mention.
I guess it doesn't matter, since we won't be
> seeing Kobe in Celtic green until he's almost ready to retire.
Sad but true.
>
> Josh Ozersky
> Marketing Communications Specialist
> Corning Museum of Glass
Trond Jacbosen
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Trond E Jacobsen [SMTP:trond@gladstone.uoregon.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 2:27 PM
> > To: "I am. . . Anonymous"
> > Cc: =?iso-8859-1?q?=22Berry@gladstone.uoregon.edu; ?= Mark S";
> > "'celtics@igtc.com'"
> > Subject: Re: Celts may be able to pluck a plum
> >
> > -------------------
> > > Why would the Lakers trade Bryant? I think the
> > > question is why the Celts would trade Walker and
> > > Pierce and all their picks for Kobe. So then Kobe can
> > > ball-hog on a barren Celtic team and get an attitude
> > > with the coach? Eventually, after the Celts continue
> > > to lose, the Boobirds will be out to trade "selfish"
> > > Kobe for Mercer.
> >
> > I disagree. Now at 20/21 Kobe is extremely selfish at
times...however
> > from a physical skills standpoint he is possibly the best in the
NBA,
> > or at least among the best. There is nothing he can't do. I
think it
> > unlikely the Lakers would trade him,. in part because West has
long
> > believed he could very well become the best player in the history
of
> > the league. I think it highly likely that he will, barring career
> > destroying injury. He has the complete range of skills, the
> > intelligence, the competitive drive, that Jordan had and, like
Jordan,
> > he will mature over time. Our chance to get a plausible candidate
for
> > best player (at least guard) of all time is NOW, while he is
creating
> > problems from selfishness, before he matures and the Lakers have
zero
> > reason to trade him.
> >
> > Again, the probability of trade is less than 20%, but in three
years,
> > when he is 24 and the best player in the league, they will never
trade
> > him. Strike now while there is some chance and wait the few years
as
> > he matures, while adding to hiss talent, which is easier using him
as
> > a draw for other quality players. ( Tim, how'd you like to play
for
> > the storied Celtics with Kobe?)
> >
> > Kobe is already maybe the best player skill wise. I see nothing
Jordan
> > could do he can't (physically), plus he is a much better rebounder
(in
> > part due to 2 additional inches) and the maturity will come
because he
> > is just too smart and competitive to accept not getting
championships.
> > Trade the whole team if necessary to get him. Are you afraid to
lose
> > the unselfish, team oriented Pierce and Walker (NOT) for a
superior
> > skills player? This team is going nowhere with those two and the
> > collection of sad sacks that fill out the rest of the roster.
> >
> >
> > Meanwhile... the Lakers will have
> > > the most dominant front-line in the league with Shaq,
> > > Toine, and Pierce and with the additional draft picks
> > > will win at least half of the championships from here
> > > until 2010.
> >
> > With Walker bombing treys because there is no room for him to move
> > inside (and miss below the rim layups) because Shaq is there?
Please.
> > Even if they do win a number between now and 2010, so what! We
would
> > also have a shot at winning, at least if we restore some sanity to
the
> > personnel strategies and bring in good people to complement Kobe.
You
> > you think Walker, Pierce + Shaq would get along?
> >
> > In a worse case scenario, we would at least have a big time player
> > (and getting bigger) we could use to trade for a top notch big
man. A
> > team doesn't improve without taking risks. I see this as Hagan +
> > Macauley for Russell or rights to Carroll for Parish and McHale
type
> > opportunity, and the team would be unwise to not even pursue if
the
> > opportunity actually presents itself.
> >
> > Archive this and come back in 4 years and if Kobe (assuming no
major
> > injury) is not the biggest difference maker in the NBA a la
Jordan I
> > will eat my computer. This Kobe trade talk is almost surely bunk,
but
> > if...
> >
> > Trond Jacobsen
> >
> > >
> > > --- "Berry, Mark S" <berrym@BATTELLE.ORG> wrote:
> > > > A few situations around the NBA bear watching.
> > > > First, the Kobe-Shaq battle
> > > > in LA. The Lakers won't do anything during the
> > > > season, but after this
> > > > season, it's sounding more and more like they may at
> > > > least discuss the
> > > > possibility of trading Kobe Bryant. If the Lakers
> > > > don't reach the Finals,
> > > > expect the talk to start. Of course, if Kobe goes on
> > > > the market, every team
> > > > in the NBA will be lining up, but the Celts could
> > > > put a pretty nice package
> > > > of players and picks on the table, starting with LA
> > > > native Paul Pierce. I'd
> > > > do Pierce, Toine and all of this year's draft picks
> > > > for Kobe. And I'd
> > > > include any other bodies the Lakers might want
> > > > (UCLA's Moiso? Vitaly to back
> > > > up Shaq?). Kobe would give the Celts the superstar
> > > > they're lacking at this
> > > > point.
> > > >
> > > > Vancouver also may be a match. Shareef and Bibby are
> > > > on the block and,
> > > > again, the Celts have some attractive bargaining
> > > > chips. I've been watching
> > > > Vancouver a lot lately and I love Bibby. He'll be
> > > > even better when he
> > > > realizes he's the best player on that team, not
> > > > Shareef. Right now he defers
> > > > to Shareef too often. Shareef, of course, is a great
> > > > player in his own
> > > > right.
> > > >
> > > > Chicago is looking for a legit, veteran player to
> > > > take some pressure off
> > > > Brand and make them more competitive (and attractive
> > > > to free agents). That's
> > > > a team that could absorb Toine's contract now
> > > > without any BYC problems, and
> > > > they have some young players they're willing to
> > > > deal. Jamal Crawford would
> > > > be the centerpiece of any deal with Boston, but the
> > > > Celts have shown
> > > > interest in Ron Artest in the past, and may be
> > > > interested in Marcus Fizer.
> > > > This would be a rebuilding move for the Celts. Also,
> > > > there could be a match
> > > > with the Bulls as part of a three-way deal.
> > > >
> > > > The Van Horn rumors may resurface if things continue
> > > > to go wrong in Jersey.
> > > > A Van Horn-Toine deal may be good for both teams and
> > > > players. A classic
> > > > "change of scenery" kind of thing.
> > > >
> > > > Philly still seems willing to discuss Iverson, and
> > > > there was a rumor
> > > > yesterday at bskball.com (so it must be true!) that
> > > > they had offered Iverson
> > > > to LA for Kobe. Larry Brown loves Toine, and I could
> > > > see a Toine-pick for
> > > > Iverson deal happening.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, the point of the post is there might be some
> > > > options out there if we
> > > > go about this the right way. In other words, don't
> > > > start selling off draft
> > > > picks in stop-gap moves (Shammond Williams?). Isn't
> > > > anyone interested in
> > > > seeing what a healthy Chris Herren brings to the
> > > > team? Is Shammond Williams
> > > > a big upgrade over Herren?
> > > >
> > > > I'm the biggest proponent on the list of blowing up
> > > > this team, but let's see
> > > > where some of these storylines go, and if we can't
> > > > land a big fish when we
> > > > finally throw our line in the water.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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> > >
>