RE: Bulpett on Walker and Pitino

["Michael Griffin" <mgriffin@rillc.com>]

I do think the talent is the problem.  This is close to one of the worst
rosters in the NBA.  Half the roster couldn't make the squad of any playoff
team in the West.  There are two assets and one (Walker) just isn't inclined
to make the team better but is driven by stats (actually ppg because if he
were worried about all stats then he wouldn't jack up so many low % shots).
I'm not sure that there is a roster that is worse than the Celtics top to
bottom.  I've given up on Walker.  He will "get it" when it is too late
(i.e. in his early to mid-30s).  The problem is I'm not too sure any of the
young guns in the league "get it".  Team ball is gone essentially.  I guess
the two teams that epitomize team ball right now are Sactown and Dallas.
Players know their roles.  On our team, we have players that were the "go
to" guy all their life in Pierce, Walker and Anderson so they seem to be
obsessed with the stats and not the "W".  They think that unless they jack
it up 20 times or make some dazzling play in the lane that the team can't
win (i.e huge egos).

Will these players change with a new coach, Pierce perhaps but he even might
be a one-dimensional scorer (i.e. no defense).  That's why I just hope the
team plays out the string with no new coach and no trades.  Let's wait til
the draft, you get some base year relief for AW and he could become more
tradeable.  Celts haven't played on the road much or against the West much
so the Celts still have a chance for the 3rd worst record (Chicago and
Washington will be tough to catch).  Since I just typed in, maybe Washington
is in as bad a situation as Boston is, perhaps worse but the Clippers and
Chicago are where Boston hopes to be a year from now, still losing but if we
could get a Brand or an Odom, guys that love to play both ends of the floor
and don't jack up the ball from all over, with a lot of unproven talent
around them (Fizer,Crawford for Chicago, Miles,Richardson,etc...for the
Clippers) then we'll be much better off.

Through this point of the season, has Walker progressed since his rookie
year and the answer is an overwhelming no.  He is in worse shape and is
shooting worse and is worried about the touches.  Does that sound like a
leader.  Would Bird in any year of his career worry about his stats?  That
is crazy.

Only trade I might make right now is Walker for Van Horn or perhap Shareef.
I think Celtic fans put too high a value on Walker.  If you go around the
league I'm not too sure gms will give up a whole lot for Walker.  He doesn't
play defense - hard to figure where to play him, too small for power, too
slow for small, doesn't stay in shape.  Only is Boston is his youth and
potential valued so high.  Too many people have him pegged as a poor man's
marc aguirre (who had a consistent jumper for at least 3-4 years).

I think Pierce should be kept unless a great deal comes along but otherwise
we know it will be another 3 years from today to make the playoffs unless we
get lucky in the draft and hit a youngster that is a quick developer.  That
is unlikely when you consider none of the youngsters had an instant impact -
even Kobe and Garnett took 2-4 years to really come into their own and Kobe
has a little AW in him, thinks he can make every shot from anywhere.

Oh well, I don't think there is a clear blue print but I do think that no
other team will over pay for players on our roster.  They would go in a fire
sale so unless there is an overwhelming offer at the trade deadline, just
rollout the ball and let Blount and Moiso play as much as possible.  Trade
Walker and Anderson for anyone that will take their salaries.

It's hindsight but Walker's trade value has gone down after every season.
He would fetched a great deal after his rookie season.

All IMHO

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-celtics@igtc.com [mailto:owner-celtics@igtc.com]On Behalf Of
> OzerskyJA
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 2:20 PM
> To: 'Thomas Murphy'; Celtic list; OzerskyJA
> Subject: RE: Bulpett on Walker and Pitino
>
>
> Tom,
>
> I guess you're right, or at least I don't feel like arguing on behalf of
> Pitino any more.  I am in favor of a back-to-basics approach, and hope
> the next coach can get the team to pass the ball, run the fast break, play
> defense, etc.  It actually might be better to get a Doug Moe type of guy
> who just lets them run wild...anything would be better than what we are
> seeing now.  I also sincerely hope that the next coach uses
> Vitaly Potapenko
> to at least 75% of what he is capable of doing.  I really feel
> like we have
> a pretty good roster if we could just get them to play good basketball.  I
> guess we may have to trade Antoine if he's that much of a cancer, but I
> don't really think the talent is the problem.
>
> Josh Ozersky
> Marketing Communications Specialist
> Corning Museum of Glass
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Thomas Murphy [SMTP:tfmiii@worldnet.att.net]
> > Sent:	Tuesday, January 09, 2001 4:43 PM
> > To:	Celtic list; OzerskyJA
> > Subject:	Re: Bulpett on Walker and Pitino
> >
> > Well, thanks for the comments on the screed. I'm especially glad you
> > enjoyed
> > the "$ucce$$". I think we're all entitled once in a while to let off
> > steam.
> >
> > I was just a little miffed at the revisionist history Bulpett
> (the guy who
> > wrote the public letter asking Pitino to stay) and others are now trying
> > to
> > peddle in wake of this latest turn in the Pitino soap. Pitino
> is guilty of
> > the same sins both he, Heinsohn and Pulpett try to hang on the league's
> > players. Try reading the Bulpett article and substitute
> Pitino's for Twon
> > in
> > the generalizations - it makes interesting reading.
> >
> > Now we hear that Pitino is a scorned prophet of old-school basics?
> >
> > The same guy who'd rather you take a three to a two and who can't even
> > teach
> > man-to-man defense or how to block out?
> >
> > Now we hear that Pitino is the coach who tried every variation under the
> > sun?
> >
> > Josh, let me remind  you of what Pitino 'trying' something
> amounted to: 5
> > minutes of V and Fortson together on the court during garbage time. Was
> > his
> > 'halfcourt experiment any more rigorous? Maybe it was as long as the
> > 'experiment' with Twon at the SF spot - an experiment I don't ever
> > remember
> > seeing. But he probably tried it in practice and it didn't work, huh?
> >
> > Now we hear that Pitino was a saint whose kindness and understanding to
> > Walker was his downfall?!?
> >
> > I don't think so!! His handling of Twon was lousy, to be sure,
> but it was
> > only a piece of a larger puzzle. Unfortunately for Twon's sake (and the
> > C's
> > too), too much water may have already passed over the dam, at least in
> > Boston.
> >
> > Now, as to *seriously* dissecting what is wrong with the team
> and Pitino's
> > 'coaching' of it - you're basically asking for a rehash of what
> I, Kestas,
> > Joe, Dorine and others have attempted to point out for at least the last
> > two
> > years. I really don't feel like going through all that yet once again.
> > (I'm
> > sure there are many on the list who concur even if they don't agree with
> > my
> > particular assessment).
> >
> > Jack Ramsey for one seems to think there are straightforward specifics
> > that
> > could be addressed in the near term. (He's an exception among
> the coaching
> > fraternity however. The way these coach's stick together make cops look
> > like
> > stoolpigeons). But I wish Ramsey good luck in trying to get his
> son-in-law
> > to give those suggestions an adequate trial. O'B seems to have inherited
> > Pitino's 'empirical' philosophy - after all, he's already experimented
> > with
> > an 8-man rotation and seems ready to junk it after playing the
> deepest and
> > most talented team in the entire league!!
> >
> > Back to Pitino. We all experience failure, but failure should
> at the least
> > lead to reassessment. I think what Pitino said after the GS game says it
> > all
> > for his re-assessment skills:
> >
> > "I don't understand".
> >
> > After 3-plus years he doesn't understand why his theories don't yield
> > empirical results. I know - it must be the players fault ;)
> >
> > But we didn't hire a theorist or analyst - we hired (I thought) a COACH.
> > Someone who could connect and motivate - not dictate from an
> ivory tower.
> > It's not like we asked a lot of the man - we all know the team
> is short on
> > talent and experience. No one expected a banner (except perhaps Rick
> > himself) and no one thought that even Red himself could be
> expected to do
> > much with the team. But the team has REGRESSED over his tenure. Josh, I
> > may
> > be wrong, but I think you had a little laugh over my prediction
> of 34 wins
> > for the season despite all the fine 'additions' (the Randy Brown
> > experiment,
> > the Chris Carr experiment, the Blount experiment, the Herren
> experiment).
> > Well, I based my prediction on what I saw as a clueless coach who
> > basically
> > was a one-trick pony (his trap/press zone plus oodles of 3pointers) who
> > had
> > played his one trick and watched it fail the past three seasons. Season
> > one
> > he had the element of surprise. Since then Rick has been
> basically mailing
> > it in and collecting his check. Yeah sure, he's tinkered a bit,
> but given
> > the nature of the tinkering it was like rearranging the deck
> chairs on the
> > Titanic. What's worse is that I think in his heart of hearts he knows it
> > to
> > be true - that's why it ate Pitino up so much.
> >
> > I'm sure Pitino will land of his feet - hell, he's got $25 mil
> to tide him
> > over. I'm sure he'll end up in some college program and win,
> because (as I
> > and others have said) his system is PERFECT for college - young players
> > with
> > little experience, no concept of a team game, marginal ball-handling
> > skills,
> > and a short 3-point line.
> >
> > It's just that his egotism, previous success and ungodly wealth left him
> > woefully unprepared to face any type of adversity (just like the players
> > he
> > was paid to coach). Not only could he not relate to players on less
> > hierarchical terms but he apparently lacked any capacity for
> re-evaluating
> > his assumptions and processing criticism (even self-criticism) except of
> > the
> > most superficial nature. These flaws (along with his legendary
> impatience)
> > are what make him a lousy and inflexible pro coach.
> >
> > -TomM
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: OzerskyJA <OzerskyJA@cmog.org>
> > To: OzerskyJA <OzerskyJA@cmog.org>; 'Thomas Murphy'
> > <tfmiii@worldnet.att.net>; Celtic list <celtics@igtc.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 12:08 PM
> > Subject: RE: Bulpett on Walker and Pitino
> >
> >
> > > For example, just to continue in my response to Tom, Pitino
> > > clearly didn't try to force his system down everyone's throats --
> > > he wasted two whole seasons trying to be a halfcourt team.
> > > He tried going man to man, and that didn't work.  The team
> > > was getting killed in down low, so he brought in Fortston
> > > and Vitaly -- and then found running to be impossible..... I just
> > > can't imagine what the best coach in the world does when he
> > > can't get results no matter why adjustments he makes.  And in
> > > fact, every coach from John Wooden on down has had losing
> > > situations like this.  Is it inexplicable?  I've been closely
> analyzing
> > > it every day for the past ten years, and reading all the analysis by
> > > all of you, and none of us is any closer to knowing the truth.  SETI
> > > will detect alien life before we get it.  God knows the players don't.
> > > Pitino doesn't understand it.  Maybe it's not arrogance but the
> > Unknowable
> > > Mystery of Celtic Badness.  All I know is -- bring back Larry!
> > >
> > > Josh Ozersky
> > > Marketing Communications Specialist
> > > Corning Museum of Glass
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: OzerskyJA [SMTP:OzerskyJA@cmog.org]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 2:59 PM
> > > > To: 'Thomas Murphy'; Celtic list
> > > > Subject: RE: Bulpett on Walker and Pitino
> > > >
> > > > A very enjoyable screed, thomas, and of course anyone that uses
> > > > dollar signs for "success" deserves extra credit, and maybe even a
> > > > job at the New York Post.  But I'm still waiting to hear why Pitino
> > > > was such a terrible coach.  I mean, I've read about his substition
> > > > patterns, his monkey outbreak defense, his sideline badgering --
> > > > but he's a golden boy in the coaching fraternity, where they are
> > > > quick to smell a gimmick.  He may be all the things you say, but I
> > > > really don't believe him when he says it's his fault that
> they didn't
> > > > pass, play defense, box out, reverse, etc. etc.  I still can't
> > understand
> > > > why the players, many of whom are marginal types struggling to
> > succeed,
> > > > would have such inexplicable stubbornness.  Yes, yes, I know, as Bob
> > > > Ryan tells me every day, the game is different than it was
> in the 80s.
> > > > But the players were making huge guaranteed sums then; and
> if I'm not
> > > > mistaken, almost all of the teams not in Boston,
> Philadelphia, or Los
> > > > Angeles were terrible.  I mean, we could count on wins
> anywhere almost
> > > > every night!  So I am willing to believe it was because Pitino was
> > such
> > a
> > > > bad coach, but I won't take it on faith.  What did he do that was so
> > > > wrong?
> > > >
> > > > Seriously.
> > > >
> > > > Josh Ozersky
> > > > Marketing Communications Specialist
> > > > Corning Museum of Glass
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Thomas Murphy [SMTP:tfmiii@worldnet.att.net]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 2:08 PM
> > > > > To: Celtic list
> > > > > Subject: Bulpett on Walker and Pitino
> > > > >
> > > > > It is funny how some people want to place all the blame for the
> > Pitino
> > > > > fiasco on either the players (as is no other team in the
> leagues has
> > to
> > > > > deal
> > > > > with similarly situated players) or his skills as a GM.
> Don't get me
> > > > > wrong,
> > > > > I think coaching players who make as much or more in
> salary can be a
> > > > > trying
> > > > > profession (certainly more trying than bullying kids out
> of HS with
> > the
> > > > > loss
> > > > > of scholarships) and Rick's record as a GM sucks. For me, however,
> > > > Rick's
> > > > > greatest failure was as a coach - he is one of the worst coaches
> > I've
> > > > ever
> > > > > witnessed. I'd also like to disagree with the thesis advanced by
> > > > Bulpett:
> > > > > that Pitino's 'one big mistake' was Walker. After all, no
> matter how
> > > > > disagreeable one finds Walker's attitude to be, Pitino
> was still the
> > > > coach
> > > > > -
> > > > > not Walker. Also, Bulpett seems to forget that it was precisely
> > Pitino's
> > > > > handling of Walker made a bad situation worse. Beyond the question
> > of
> > > > > whether Pitino or his admirers will successfully scapegoat Walker
> > and
> > > > > other
> > > > > players for the actual regression of this team over the last
> > three-plus
> > > > > years, I'd like to point out that Pitino has several
> flaws that led
> > him
> > > > to
> > > > > being THE most inflexible, obstinate 'coach' I have ever seen.
> > > > Ironically
> > > > > each of the flaws is something that Pitino himself
> attributes to the
> > > > young
> > > > > people he coaches:
> > > > >
> > > > > Pitino was making way too much MONEY - hence he was less worried
> > about
> > > > the
> > > > > final outcome (victories) than worried about achieving that final
> > > > outcome
> > > > > HIS way (via the trap/press/3-pt barrage etc.). Just a
> brief perusal
> > of
> > > > > Jack
> > > > > Ramsey's column shows there were plenty of options for
> the coach but
> > he
> > > > > refused to relent from his orthodoxy - at the very most
> substituting
> > his
> > > > > half-court trapping zone for his full-court pressing
> zone. Not much
> > > > > imagination or creativity on display for $25 mil, eh? It was like
> > three
> > > > > years of watching the poor players running their heads
> into a brick
> > wall
> > > > > with Pitino ranting about how they have to WANT to break that wall
> > with
> > > > > their heads, the wall won't give until they BUY into the guru's
> > > > > 'teachings'.
> > > > > No wonder most of the players act as if their confidence is shot.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pitino was (and still is) EGOTISTICAL to a fault - nothing that
> > happened
> > > > > over the past three-plus years made him re-examine his
> own premises
> > > > about
> > > > > how to win B-ball at the pro level. With regards to personnel
> > > > management,
> > > > > in
> > > > > his Globe interview he says he thinks he wasn't
> dictatorial enough!
> > The
> > > > > problem wasn't him not being not harsh enough, it was
> that he - Rick
> > > > > Pitino - changed the rules depending on the person, a hallmark of
> > > > > dictatorship not fairness.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pitino was (and is) SELFISH - he talks a great game (like Walker)
> > but
> > > > his
> > > > > actions speak louder. He is not leaving the team for the
> good of the
> > C's
> > > > -
> > > > > if that were the case he would have left last year when it was
> > obvious
> > > > > that
> > > > > he had run out of 'tricks'. After having coached  the
> creampuff part
> > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > team's schedule (and taking more $eltic green) he's leaving now to
> > suit
> > > > > his
> > > > > own schedule (i.e. recruiting schedule). No one else on this team
> > has
> > > > the
> > > > > luxury of cutting and bolting (check note above on money). This
> > episode
> > > > in
> > > > > C's history has always been about Rick's likes and dislikes and
> > nothing
> > > > > else.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pitino also has enjoyed wealth and success TOO EARLY just like the
> > folks
> > > > > he
> > > > > coaches insofar as he was fortunate enough to have always enjoyed
> > > > success
> > > > > before Boston but too stupid to realize that luck plays a role in
> > such
> > > > > success. LOTS of people work hard every day without enjoying the
> > kind
> > of
> > > > > $ucce$$ bestowed on Pitino and NBA players. $ucce$$ does not
> > necessarily
> > > > > follow from hard work. Pitino was so successful so early in his
> > career
> > > > > that
> > > > > he never realized that success may not simply be an individual
> > choice.
> > I
> > > > > think this is why he shows such a fundamental disrespect
> to others -
> > > > > particularly others who he views as losers. Rick's
> arrogance is why
> > some
> > > > > people are so gleeful now that his failure has been
> sealed - kind of
> > > > like
> > > > > the plot line from Orson Welles "The Magnificent
> Ambersons" - young
> > > > > arrogant
> > > > > sh!thead (who BTW feels it is his right to preach to others how to
> > > > improve
> > > > > their pathetic miserable loser lives) finally gets his.
> > > > >
> > > > > I say good riddance to the egotistical sh!thead who never had the
> > > > patience
> > > > > or time of day for the opinions or feelings of 'losers' -
> welcome to
> > the
> > > > > 'fellowship of the miserable'. It is human to fail - the true mark
> > of
> > a
> > > > > superior person is how they face up to adversity. In confronting
> > > > adversity
> > > > > apparently for the very first time late in life Pitino was exposed
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > type of person he is - 'me first, everyone else second -
> either win
> > MY
> > > > way
> > > > > or else f*** everyone' -  just like his star pupil,
> Antoine Walker.
> > > > >
> > > > > He leaves this team in a worse situation than he found it both on
> > the
> > > > > court
> > > > > and in business terms. And please, do not wave those three draft
> > picks
> > > > in
> > > > > my
> > > > > face. It is not as if Pitino said to himself: 'gee we
> need to invest
> > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > future, wonder if I can trade for some picks'. Both the
> Denver pick
> > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > pick coming via Salt Lake were the results of desperation trades
> > brought
> > > > > on
> > > > > by Pitino's mercurial handling of personnel and represent
> the sugar
> > used
> > > > > to
> > > > > induce Boston to suck down a bitter trade pill (EW's contract,
> > losing
> > > > > Fortson for essentially nothing). Neither pick represented Pitino
> > > > looking
> > > > > out for the future as much as saving face in trade
> negotiations. The
> > > > very
> > > > > next thing Pitino does solely for the good of the team will be the
> > > > first.
> > > > > Not that he has to, no one is pretending that it isn't a
> business -
> > > > except
> > > > > for Pitino that is, with his pious flim-flam cant (worthy of a
> > > > mountebank)
> > > > > about leaving for the 'good of the team' and 'positioning the team
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > future'. Good riddance!
> > > > >
> > > > > -TomM
>