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Re: Mardi Gras (No Who Content)



Mark, Re:

> First of all, when explaining what Mardi Gras is all about, I am not writing
> a note "concerning what you believe is Christian belief." Instead, I am
> explaining Mardi Gras.

That's what you should do.  In fact, you explained the Mardi Gras habits at New
Orleans very well.  The only thing I objected to was the superfluous and
dubious sentence (in your note of the 13th)

   } It has been tied with Xtian beliefs now in that it begins at Epithany (in
   } January) and ends the day before Ash Wed.

The following quote from your note of the 14th was what I called a `note
concerning what you believe is Christian believe':

   ) It's a time for "getting your sins out." This has to do with giving things
   ) up for Lent, and Lent is a Xtian belief...so yes it does have to do with
   ) Xtian beliefs.

So, IMHO, I have done nothing wrong.

> BTW, given that Whitsunday isn't called that in the US, I don't think that
> you have a point there. I'm sure that you want to find any flaw in my
> argument, impossible as they are to find, but this isn't one. 

No, that's in fact exactly my point.  You are always referring to how thing are
`called' and what is `said' about Christian believes.  This way, you stay
completely on the surface of the topic and you are arguing at the level of
rumours and assumptions.  There's nothing wrong with that point of view, but
you definitely must not draw any theological conclusions if your reasoning
lacks depth.

Back to our example:  In our recent discussion, you claimed that Christmas and
Easter are the two major Christian holidays.  I contradicted and said that
there is a third one, called Whitsunday.  Now, if you had had a little in-depth
knowledge about Christianity, you would have known a) that the only holiday I
could possible have meant is Pentecost, and b) that Whitsunday is a less common
name for Pentecost (in America).  But instead, you asked me if I could have
meant Ash Wednesday, which is completely ridiculous to everyone who has studied
Christianity a little:  Ash Wednesday simply is not an important holiday.

BTW:  I have rarely seen arrogance like this as you are claiming to argue
flawlessly.  I would never dare to claim that in a philosophical or religious
discussion.

> Did I use the term "Xtian belief" in regard to Mardi Gras? Go back and read
> my note.

Fine, as you wish, let's review it once again.  On the 13th, you wrote

   } It has been tied with Xtian beliefs now in that it begins at Epithany (in
   } January) and ends the day before Ash Wed.

and on the 14th, you continued

   ) It's a time for "getting your sins out." This has to do with giving things
   ) up for Lent, and Lent is a Xtian belief...so yes it does have to do with
   ) Xtian beliefs.

> And tell me how you intend to separate a rite from a belief. Belief spawns
> ritual, therefore...I mean, if you want to be technical about it.

A rite is a religious practice whereas a belief is a religious teaching you
take as a truth even though you cannot completely prove it.  I practise the
fasting during Lent, but I do not believe in Lent because there is nothing to
believe.  And of course I do not belief in Mardi Gras because there is even
less to believe.

> >As mentioned in your and my previous posts, the carnival tradition itself is
> >a pagan one, celebrating the end of winter and the beginning of spring with
> >some anti-demonic rituals, including colourful disguises.
> 
> I love the way you try to slip that in. Demonic? There's nothing "demonic"
> about Mardi Gras, unless you believe that enjoying yourself is demonic.

Read again, Mark.  The pagan end-of-winter rituals were supposed to scare off
the winter demons.  However, in many countries tradition has changed over the
centuries, and it is really hard to see any references to demons in the way
carnival is celebrated in Rio de Janeiro, New Orleans, or Cologne.  Some
references can be detected in the carnival of Venice, and the pure pagan cult
can still be observed in south-western Germany and Switzerland.

> Next you're going to tell me that women can't dance or wear pants...

I don't care at all what anybody is or isn't wearing in the streets and whether
women are dancing there or not.  I'd like to see some decent clothing and
behaviour in church, but still women are free to decide whether they prefer to
wear dresses, skirts, or pants there.  And I think that there are a few other
places where decent clothing doesn't hurt.  Parliament, e.g.

> >So, in case of your New Orleans Mardi Gras, two things melted together:  The
> >pagan end-of-winter cult and the need to eat a lot before Lent.  Both of
> >them had nothing to do with Christian belief.
> 
> Again, the fact that you're giving up "for Lent," and Lent is a Xtian
> belief, invalidates your assumption.

As mentioned above, Lent is not a belief.

> You should read my posts with more attention to what's written.

Interesting that of all listers YOU are saying this...

> I said in the first sentence that Mardi Gras was a pagan celebration...and
> nowhere did I write that it was a Xtian one.

I never claimed that you did.  I only objected to (and now let's review it for
a third and last time) the juxtaposition of Mardi Gras and Christian belief in

   } The Mardi Gras is a quasi-Pagan holiday, celebrating rebirth. It has been
   } tied with Xtian beliefs now in that it begins at Epithany (in January) and
   } ends the day before Ash Wed.

Got it?

Cheers,

Bernd