Re: The Who Vs The Rest

[Slipkid@gnn.com (Ian Derby)]

>Date:	Sun, 11 Feb 1996 16:40:49 -0500
>From:	mleaman@sccoast.net (Mark Leaman)
>Sender:	owner-thewho@mpath.com
>To:	thewho@mpath.com
>Subject:	Re: The Who Vs The Rest
>
>>Solo albums are AFTER the fact, not during.  Zep III is entirely Page. 
> He 
>>was trying to diversify the Yardbirds in a folk direction before they 
>>disbanded.  Instead they were too much into the psychadelia era.   Listen
> to 
>>Pages's White Summer and you know he had a knack for the songs he wrote
> on 
>>Zep III.
>
>Ian:
>
>We can only use the evidence we have to work with. And yes, I've got White
>Summer by The Yardbirds and various versions by Zeppelin as it became Black
>Mountain Side. But it still seems to me that the songs on LZ III are more
>akin to the ones on LZ 4 and HOUSES OF THE HOLY...and the rest. Besides, LZ
>III was one of my two (the other being A QUESTION OF BALANCE by The Moody
>Blues) favorite albums to listen to while tripping. It is CERTAINLY
> psychedelic.


What your tripping perference happened to be doesn't make something 
psychedelic (I won't open the Something Else argument again but it's the 
same thing).  LZ III's folk songs are nothing like the celtic ala Fairport 
Convention sound you hear on IV and Houses.  It's a totally different style. 
III is wistful and light while IV and Houses have a colder english edge in 
style (read Plant's rising input).  Now, compare Jim McCarty's Shining Where 
the Sun Has Been and what Page was doing and you'll see what I meant in 
contrasting style directions.






>
>>Yeah Mark. but when did YMB become THE song we now hear on Leeds?  By 
>>listening to Pure Rock Theatre, I'd say late '69 during or after Zep II
> was 
>>released.  My point is YMB wasn't perfected until the Who's live peak so
> you 
>>can throw that out the window.  
>
>I'd say it evolved through the years. For that matter, check out Relax on
>Fillmore East `68 and tell me that it's not an influence for LZ II. YMB
>probably influenced Page and Plant way back in `65, when they heard The Who
>doing it in clubs. It isn't that much different, really. Just a bit more
>jazzy. And (for the time) as "heavy" as any song could be.
>


Relax is excellent from that show and should've been how it sounded on Sell 
Out, but again where is the influence on Zeppelin?  If anything Relax is a 
Hendrix imitation with a flamboyant drummer.  Throw out the feedback and 
Pete actually tries to attain that Hendrix style of guitar soloing.  


If you really want to point out where exactly the Who are clearly heard on 
LZ II (because I want to be proven wrong)  show me.  An album that's laced 
with guitar riffs, many lifted from blues musicians over an album of power 
chords and strong rhythm doesn't not say WHO to me.  The ONLY clear 
influence I can think of is their use of dynamics on Thank You.  




>>BTW Jack Bruce played with John Mayall.  
>
>I know that. But his Cream and solo music show little to no influence by
>Mayall. 

That's not true, Fresh Cream is really Mayall without his participation.  
Now of course Cream evolved into something different which is their stamp, 
but the very early Cream are hard to distinguish from Mayall's sound in 
1966.  Listen to Spoonful and Bruce's vocal style is a mirror image of 
Mayall.



>
>>Name them, there aren't many...Paul Weller is the only one who comes to 
>>mind.  
>
>Jimi Hendrix, if you must have one. That's too easy. It's my contention
> that
>all songwriters were influenced by Townshend's breaking down the limits of
>RnR with My Generation.


That's too general, all songwriters?  Hendrix took more in SONGWRITING from 
Dylan and Lennon/Macca than Townshend.  I dare say that we'd have to go 
through Holland Dozier Holland before Townshend appears in Jimi's list of 
songwriting influences.  Ray Davies already landed on the moon with You 
Really Got Me, Townshend just took rock to mars.  Point being, PT didn't do 
it first.


>
>>>Again, I didn't say it was the only influence! 
>>>Here's a quote for you from Stephen Kaplan and Arthur Marko of
> Performance
>>>Records: "Ten years after the Bubble Gum scene, new wave artists like The
>>>Talking Heads (who for years included 1,2,3 Red Light in their live set),
>>>Blondie, The Cars, and The Ramones all affectionately acknowledge The
> Ohio
>>>Players and The 1910 Fruitgum Company." If you want a direct quote from
>>>David Byrne, you'll have to give me a little time to find one.
>
>>Well at least my quotes come from the actual members of the band, and not
> a 
>>group of writers who are trying to hype a story to make money.  You don't 
>>need a direct quote from David Byrne,  just listen to Blind and you hear
> his 
>>version of James Brown soul.
>
>If it comes to that, I can hear the influence of Bubble Gum in The Talking
>Heads music, too. So can you, if you listen for it. The first four albums,
>for instance.
>And my quote wasn't from "writers trying to make money," but from two
> record
>execs who were being interviewed because they were on the scene at the
> time.
>


You're right, the Talking Heads do have a definate pop influence, BUT the 
overall tone of their music has a lot more to do with VU than probably any 
other band, especially as you say on the first four albums.  





"I'm pissed off, I'm pissed off all the time" ---Ray Rhodes