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Re: 200 bucks for this!
I believe the issue that you are touching on is one of driver preference.
What one person finds to be neutral with a predictable throttle-off
oversteer, another may find to have sudden & unexpected oversteer.
I believe there was a discussion about driver preference on this list a
while back, & as I recall, it turned into an argument at some point.
However, the only way to resolve this issue for yourself is to go out to an
autocross & push your car to 11/10th. No amount of e-mail discussion will
settle the issue of which set of handling characteristics is best.
Later!
Michael Keith
Pasadena, TX
'98 Jetta GLX
'85 Golf SCCA ITB
-----Original Message-----
From: Stewart MacLund <sundie@lunaticfringe.org>
To: jettaglx@igtc.com <jettaglx@igtc.com>
Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: 200 bucks for this!
>I believe someone covere dthat under control in a spin. What i mean is
>that with the dfinite understeer, there's less chance (as i understand
>it), for a spin out. Your front wheel are far more likely to lose
>traction first, if i understand the whole concept correctly.
>
>However, i can't believe that people would rather lose steering control,
>rather than have the back wheels go out a bit. :)
>
>SUndie...
>
>Christopher Cooley wrote:
>>
>> M&C Keith,
>> Good thoughts. I appreciate your taking the time to explain common
>> physics of sway bars. From someone who may, if $$ allow, make the
>> investment in sway bars, purchase a sway bar , it will be first a rear
>> due solely from your posting. It seems to me that all front wheel
>> drive cars have an inherent understeer, thus from the logic of our
>> insight, a stiff rear sway bar should be standard issue of the GLX -
>> given its "sport" suspension upgrades.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>> Michael & Carmen Keith wrote:
>>
>> > I don't have any Shine Racing products myself; so I can't comment
>> > from
>> > specific experience. However, I do know that while a rear sway bar
>> > should
>> > increase roll stiffness to some degree, it won't be as noticeable as
>> > a
>> > change in the front sway bar. What you really want from a rear sway
>> > bar is
>> > to reduce understeer. Sway bars are meant to do more than simply
>> > increase
>> > roll stiffness. They are meant to fine tune a car's handling, but
>> > they
>> > actually affect the opposite end of the car. For instance, to
>> > reduce
>> > understeer, you add a bigger rear sway bar which promotes oversteer,
>> > & if
>> > you want to reduce oversteer (which would almost never be the case
>> > in our
>> > cars), then you would add a bigger front sway bar. In other words,
>> > as you
>> > increase the roll stiffness on one end of the car relative to the
>> > other end,
>> > grip is actually reduced on the end that you are increasing roll
>> > stiffness.
>> > I know this sounds weird, & I don't completely understand it
>> > myself. If you
>> > talk to someone who is well versed in race car setup, he/she could
>> > probably
>> > explain it better.
>> >
>> > A real life example is the understeering problem I am having with my
>> > race
>> > car. In order to resolve it, I am going to increase the stiffness
>> > of the
>> > rear sway bar (it's adjustable). If that doesn't work, I am
>> > actually going
>> > to remove my Neuspeed front sway bar. If removing the Neuspeed bar
>> > from the
>> > front makes the car oversteer excessively, I am either going to put
>> > a stock
>> > front sway bar on or dial some of the stiffness out of the rear sway
>> > bar.
>> >
>> > Roll stiffness is not the only measure of good handling, & with all
>> > the
>> > suspension mods that you already have on the car, I would not expect
>> > a rear
>> > sway bar to increase stiffness noticeably. However, the factory
>> > sets our
>> > cars up to understeer severely. Understeering is the handling
>> > characteristic most favored by product liability lawyers because it
>> > insures
>> > that the car won't spin (unless you really screw up). Therefore, if
>> > you go
>> > out & take that corner that used to make the car plow like a
>> > tractor, you
>> > should notice that it rotates through that turn considerably better
>> > with the
>> > addition of the rear sway bar.
>> >
>> > Michael Keith
>> > Pasadena, TX
>> > '98 Jetta GLX
>> > '85 Golf SCCA ITB
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: MAOberer@aol.com <MAOberer@aol.com>
>> > To: gti-vr6@cobra.ccsi.com <gti-vr6@cobra.ccsi.com>;
>> > jettaglx@igtc.com
>> > <jettaglx@igtc.com>
>> > Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:54 AM
>> > Subject: 200 bucks for this!
>> >
>> > >Let the flames begin...
>> > > About a week ago, I ordered a Shine rear sway bar for my 95 Jetta
>> > GLX. It
>> > >comes in the mail today, I pull it out of the box and its a 3' bar
>> > of metal
>> > >with finger sized tubes coming out of both sides (4 total). and 4
>> > bolts.
>> > But
>> > >I put aside the thought that I just paid two hundred bucks for 20
>> > bucks
>> > worth
>> > >of metal powdercoated, and installed it. The installation wasn't
>> > too bad,
>> > and
>> > >then I headed out for some "spirited" driving. The bar did help
>> > stiffen a
>> > bit
>> > >of the steering, but not enough IMO to warrant $200. I also have
>> > on the
>> > car
>> > >Eibach springs, Bilstein shocks and a nuespeed upper strut bar. To
>> > be
>> > honest
>> > >with everyone, I wasn't that impressed. I know you die hard
>> > shiners are
>> > going
>> > >to jump me on this, but I had heard that this Shine bar was the
>> > end-all,
>> > be-
>> > >all of sway bars. I was looking to reduce body roll in my car, and
>> > in my
>> > >perception, that did not happen. All I did was stiifen up a
>> > torsion bar
>> > for
>> > >200 bills.
>> > > I'm sorry at the contreversy this is going to cause, but I felt
>> > the need
>> > to
>> > >voice my opinion to the list. And I will be returning the bar, its
>> > just
>> > not
>> > >worth it.
>> > >
>> > >thanks,
>> > >Matt
>> > >95 GLX "let down by a sway bar edition"
>>
>>
>
>--
>
>
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>Stewart MacLund Systems Integrator
>Email: sundie@zubcor.com Zubcor Networking
>URL: http://www.zubcor.com/ 35 Lewis Street
>Fax: +1.416.465.9148 Toronto, Ontario, CA
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