RE: Twan rearing his ugly head

[Kim <kimmalo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Sean, you'd mentioned the escalation before. Almost all contracts escalate every year, and I'm only saying almost because I can't be bothered to do the research to verify if it is all of them, as I'm fairly sure it is. So relative ranking isn't gong to change based on raises (since per the CBA each subsequent year is limited to within a certain % [10-12.5% in most cases] of the initial year of the contract - i.e. you can't give a whopper one year and it doesn't compound off the prior year of a long term contract). That's not going to change relative position, albeit it will increase absolute dollars.

Agreed, it's a long term contract. And he hasn't played worth it for us to date. Too soon for a total write off though, as you yourself are reasonably enough to admit. But also, don't forget to factor in a point in trading Walker that I've raised probably too many times before that Jim Hill brought in again in this thread - it's not just about getting rid of Walker himself and getting something for him. It was also about the likely effect of having him around on any attempt at change and the development of others, in myriad ways. I like Antoine in a lot of ways, I don't know if this was the best deal we could have gotten for him or if it's the worst one that was available, but I can't really argue against the need for it and waiting all season for a better one would have fairly certainly had bad ripple effects on others that I don't see you factoring in in.

Kim


-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Giovanello <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Mar 10, 2004 3:30 PM
To: 'Shawn Niles' <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx, jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, celtics@xxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Twan rearing his ugly head

Yep, its opionion based and, to be honest, I hope your opinion turns out
to be right because it will be better for the Celts.  My head and my gut
both tell me it wont.

As for the contention that his salary is 51st or so in the league, it
also escalates every year.  Its:

$8,178,750 (2003-2004)
	

$9,087,500 (2004-2005)
	

$9,996,250 (2005-2006)
	 

$10,905,000 (2006-2007)
	

$11,813,750 (2007-2008)
	

$12,722,500 (2008-2009)

That means (counting this year) the Celtics owe Raef 62,703,375 million
over the life of the contract.  He will be under contract into 2009.
That's a lot of dollars and a lot of years.

Looking down the line, many teams don't even have a guy on their roster
signed this long.  Other guys under current contracts in 08-08 are:

Richard Hamilton 10.5 mil

Steve Francis 16.3

Jermaine O'Neal 21.3 mil

Elton Brand 16.4

Corey Maggette 8.4 mil

Lamar Odom 12.6 mil

Kevin Garnett 24 mil

Wally Szerbiak 13 mil

Jason Kidd 21.3 mil

Baron Davis 16.3 mil

Stephon Marbury 21.9

Juwan Howard 7.35 mil

Allen Iverson 21.9 mil

Eric Snow 7.3 mil

Shawn Marion 16.3 mil

Mike Bibby 14.5

Brad Miller 11.7 mil

Tim Duncan 20.5

Radoslav Nesterovic 8.5 mil

Gilbert Arenas 12.8 mil

Jerry Stackhouse 9 mil


So, the guys under contrat making morethan Raef in the final year of his
deal will be:  Gilbert Arenas, Tim Duncan, Shawn Marion, Allen Iverson,
Stephon Marbury, Baron Davis, Jason Kidd, Szerbiak, Garnett, Elton
Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, and Steve Francis.

Looking at those deals, I only see two that I would say are equal or
worse - obviously 1 is Stackhouse and the 2nd is still up in the air in
Arenas.  Take out those two and you are in pretty elite company.
Arguably, some of the other guys who are getting older (Kidd and AI) are
being rewarded for service prior to those years.  However, it's a pretty
elite list.


-----Original Message-----
From: Shawn Niles [mailto:shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:55 PM
To: sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx; jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; celtics@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head

He just had surgery to fix the knee problems you speak of. It's also 
debatable as to whether or not his desire can be questioned. Probably
best 
to let this thread die off since both sides are pretty much based on 
opinion. As has been stated, only time will tell the tale of this one.

http://www.geocities.com/fantasybasketballfederation/salaries.htm#t2



>From: Sean Giovanello <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: Shawn Niles <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>CC: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx,  jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,  celtics@xxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head
>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:43:19 -0500
>
>Raef will be tradeable in the last year of his contract. Bad knees, 
>questionable desire, and 5 years remaining at escalating dollar amounts

>make him pretty unattractive.
>
>For all the other moves, I agree that that contracts are tradeable and
if 
>the market isnt there at a dollar amount that we can ride them out. To
me, 
>thats why Raef is so problematic. It runs contrary to what you assume
this 
>team was about under ainge. It indicates to me that personal distaste
got 
>in the way of business sense. I understand that many disagree with the
idea 
>that he can be traded - however many believe that he had one of the
worst 
>contracts in recent years and that he was a player and contract Dallas
was 
>DESPERATE to move at almost any cost.
>
>The one saving grace in this trade is Vin Baker. If Vin had not drank 
>himself out of a job, the Raef contract would have grown more onerous
each 
>year as we would be stuck with 2 max and one creeping closer to max
deal 
>(if someone can confirm the dollars per year on Raefs remaining
contract I 
>would appreciate I have not been able to find it). That would have
greatly 
>reduced flexibility and left Danny with very few options for this year
and 
>next year outside of the midlevel.
>
>As for his age, he is going to be 29 this year I think. Thats a veteran
in 
>this league - not a youngster. That being said, if his knee holds up
and 
>with chronic knee problems the trend is the other way, he could be a 
>productive player in the league for another 5-7 years. I am not arguing

>that he cant play. Its just when you lump in his contract he becomes a 
>pretty unattractive guy to have on your team in an era of cap and tax
and a 
>limited pockets ownership in Boston.
>
>
>Shawn Niles wrote:
>
>>Many would argue that every one of Danny's trades have been for guys
that 
>>have more talent than the ones he shipped out.. AND.. that he has not 
>>taken on any unmovable contracts. You say Raef could never be traded.
Many 
>>disagree with that. He was traded to us, wasn't he? And now another
year 
>>is gone from his deal since then, which if we go by your Antoine
logic, 
>>only makes Raef's deal more attractive. Plus, despite your saying that
he 
>>is not, Raef IS actually a young guy.
>>
>>Ricky could easily be moved. Same with Mihm, Atkins, or Stewart. Danny
is 
>>not taking on contracts that he will be stuck with. He could move
anyone 
>>on this roster at any time.
>>
>>
>>>From: Sean Giovanello <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>To: Shawn Niles <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>CC: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx, jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, celtics@xxxxxxxx
>>>Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head
>>>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:35:39 -0500
>>>
>>>If you have a guy that can judge talent it can work. If you have a
guy 
>>>who is not universally hated (Krause), it can work. There are risks
to 
>>>every strategy. Regardless, I am not talking about nuking the Celts
down 
>>>to a CBA roster and playing for draft picks and the hope to lure a
prize 
>>>free agent and rebuild. I am talking about a strategy for 
>>>building/managing a team (I call it the anti-Pitino philosophy) where
you 
>>>try never to take on a contract you will have trouble moving and in
every 
>>>deal you want to be sensitive to those issues. About the only time
you 
>>>would want a long term contract is when its a young guy at a
reasonable 
>>>salary or if you are getting an elite player. Raef is neither of
those. I 
>>>think its moves that ignore this that doom a team like the C's. If
Danny 
>>>does not realize that, I think that regardless of his eye for talent 
>>>(which he has) that he will ultimately be a failure here.
>>>
>>>Shawn Niles wrote:
>>>
>>>>Clearing cap space worked really well for Orlando and Chicago. Teams
are 
>>>>starting to realize that clearing cap space is not the best way to
build 
>>>>your team.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Sean Giovanello" <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>To: <Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx>, <jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, 
>>>>><celtics@xxxxxxxx>
>>>>>Subject: RE: Twan rearing his ugly head
>>>>>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:56:29 -0500
>>>>>
>>>>>***
>>>>>Something you never explain, Sean, is just what other trade was out
>>>>>there
>>>>>that was better than what we got?
>>>>>****
>>>>>
>>>>>Right before the season started? Probably nothing. There are very
very
>>>>>few deals available at that time of year. So, we were dealing at
the
>>>>>wrong time of year, unless you truly believe that Toine was such a
>>>>>cancer he had to be dealt immediately. If that's the case, why
wasn't
>>>>>he dealt over the summer?
>>>>>
>>>>>My point in all of this is simple NBA logic. As a players contract
>>>>>comes closer and closer to being up, his contract gets more
valuable.
>>>>>Ideally, Walker could have been dealt before the deadline this year

>>>>>and,
>>>>>if not, during the offseason or next season at the deadline. At
each
>>>>>point, IN THEORY, his contract becomes more valuable as a trading
chit.
>>>>>I am not claiming omnipotence or farseeing abilities here. I am
just
>>>>>using NBA logic here.
>>>>>
>>>>>***
>>>>>If Walker opts out this year which I think is 50-50 after listening
to
>>>>>his radio show last night, the Mavs like the Cs would get nothing
for
>>>>>him.
>>>>>***
>>>>>
>>>>>We would get nothing except shedding a max contract - 14 million 
>>>>>dollars
>>>>>per annum!!!! Considering its looking like we have been amazingly
lucky
>>>>>shedding Vin to then lose Antoine for nothing as you say would be
>>>>>amazing luck. Where would it have left our cap to take Walker and
Baker
>>>>>off? Fundamentally, we have a disagreement over rebuilding here. I
>>>>>think the way to rebuild is to create cap flexibility, which we
really
>>>>>have not. I think creating some space lets you be a player in
almost
>>>>>anything going on in the NBA - draft, free agency, and trades. If
he
>>>>>opted out, and even in light of his comments last night, I do not
think
>>>>>it likely, its not a bad thing. The argument from this view would
be
>>>>>that if he opted out we would clear some major cap room, not be
saddled
>>>>>with Raef's escalating deal (which I think pays him close to the
max 
>>>>>the
>>>>>last two years), and so forth. We would not have Jiri and we would
not
>>>>>have Atkins. We would not have the first rounder. However, I think
>>>>>most teams would follow the course I have laid out rather than what
>>>>>Danny has done.
>>>>>
>>>>>I fully admit I might be wrong. Nothing is certain in life. I don't
>>>>>really have a side here. I liked Toine, but knew he was going to be
>>>>>traded. I think he would have had more value down the road, but
that
>>>>>being said I like Jiri on this team. I just think the longer this
deal
>>>>>goes (unless we get insanely lucky on this pick) that we will be
saying
>>>>>it might have been better to keep Cyber Toine for a few more months
>>>>>rather than take Raef.
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx [mailto:Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx]
>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:28 AM
>>>>>To: sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx; jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>>>>>celtics@xxxxxxxx
>>>>>Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head
>>>>>
>>>>>Something you never explain, Sean, is just what other trade was out
>>>>>there
>>>>>that was better than what we got? If Walker opts out this year
which I
>>>>>think is
>>>>>50-50 after listening to his radio show last night, the Mavs like
the 
>>>>>Cs
>>>>>would
>>>>>get nothing for him. If he doesn't opt out, why do you think a
better
>>>>>deal is
>>>>>out there, even for the Mavs? Look at what we got for Mills
expiring
>>>>>deal,
>>>>>Atkins and a no. 1. Yeah, the Blazers got more for Wallace's
contract
>>>>>but he is
>>>>>better than Twan.....
>>>>>
>>>>>DJessen33
>>>>>
>>>>><< I think its highly unlikely that he will - but if there were a
guy
>>>>>who
>>>>>would do it, I think it would be Antoine.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't agree with you on Raef, but time will tell which of us is
>>>>>right.
>>>>>I just think his talent doesn't justify his salary and that if I
recall
>>>>>correctly due to the way his contract is structured his salary is
not
>>>>>an
>>>>>even 10 per season, but goes up each year.
>>>>>
>>>>>I like what we got in return - my point was just that we (as in the
>>>>>Celtics and their fans) value that stuff a lot more than Dallas
did.
>>>>>Mills meant very little to Dallas cause Cuban has a lot deeper
pockets
>>>>>and is willing to dip into them. For the draft pick, there are
>>>>>probably
>>>>>a lot of teams who wouldn't be wild about the 27th pick in the
first
>>>>>round - Danny thinks he can get something or use it in a deal to
net
>>>>>something back. If he does, excellent. For Dallas, its not that big
>>>>>of
>>>>>a deal. For Jiri, I am not sure he will be a above average NBA
starter
>>>>>- but it looks like he might be just what this team or any team
needs
>>>>>--> a smart, heady player with some skill and some toughness. I
don't
>>>>>think he is the answer, but he is certainly a piece of the puzzle
to
>>>>>building a winning team here. Again, for Dallas, they already have
>>>>>that
>>>>>and thus he goes to being a key cog here versus a minor bit part
there.
>>>>>None of this is my attempt to run down the extras in this deal - I
just
>>>>>don't agree with Raef coming back due to a) his contract b) his
skills
>>>>>and c)the idea that getting rid of cap space and financial
flexibility
>>>>>for anything less than a true star is bad business in the NBA... >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>
>
>

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