RE: Twan rearing his ugly head

["Sean Giovanello" <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Yeah, I will totally admit is not the best way to explain it given that
few guys have contracts going that far.  However, to some extent, it
says teams arent willing to sign such long contracts for big money with
very many guys. 

It is a kickass site for salaries - I bookmarked it to spend a boring
Friday at work going through it in more detail...

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-celtics@xxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-celtics@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Shawn Niles
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 4:15 PM
To: sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx; jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; celtics@xxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Twan rearing his ugly head

That is sort of flawed thinking though. There's only those few contracts

because very few guys have come up for extensions that could go that
long. 
Over the next few years you'll see others extended through the same time

frame, and probably many for more money than Raef makes.

Great site for salaries though, huh?


>From: "Sean Giovanello" <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: "'Shawn Niles'" <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>CC:
<Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx>,<jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,<celtics@xxxxxxxx>
>Subject: RE: Twan rearing his ugly head
>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:30:28 -0500
>
>
>Yep, its opionion based and, to be honest, I hope your opinion turns
out
>to be right because it will be better for the Celts.  My head and my
gut
>both tell me it wont.
>
>As for the contention that his salary is 51st or so in the league, it
>also escalates every year.  Its:
>
>$8,178,750 (2003-2004)
>
>
>$9,087,500 (2004-2005)
>
>
>$9,996,250 (2005-2006)
>
>
>$10,905,000 (2006-2007)
>
>
>$11,813,750 (2007-2008)
>
>
>$12,722,500 (2008-2009)
>
>That means (counting this year) the Celtics owe Raef 62,703,375 million
>over the life of the contract.  He will be under contract into 2009.
>That's a lot of dollars and a lot of years.
>
>Looking down the line, many teams don't even have a guy on their roster
>signed this long.  Other guys under current contracts in 08-08 are:
>
>Richard Hamilton 10.5 mil
>
>Steve Francis 16.3
>
>Jermaine O'Neal 21.3 mil
>
>Elton Brand 16.4
>
>Corey Maggette 8.4 mil
>
>Lamar Odom 12.6 mil
>
>Kevin Garnett 24 mil
>
>Wally Szerbiak 13 mil
>
>Jason Kidd 21.3 mil
>
>Baron Davis 16.3 mil
>
>Stephon Marbury 21.9
>
>Juwan Howard 7.35 mil
>
>Allen Iverson 21.9 mil
>
>Eric Snow 7.3 mil
>
>Shawn Marion 16.3 mil
>
>Mike Bibby 14.5
>
>Brad Miller 11.7 mil
>
>Tim Duncan 20.5
>
>Radoslav Nesterovic 8.5 mil
>
>Gilbert Arenas 12.8 mil
>
>Jerry Stackhouse 9 mil
>
>
>So, the guys under contrat making morethan Raef in the final year of
his
>deal will be:  Gilbert Arenas, Tim Duncan, Shawn Marion, Allen Iverson,
>Stephon Marbury, Baron Davis, Jason Kidd, Szerbiak, Garnett, Elton
>Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, and Steve Francis.
>
>Looking at those deals, I only see two that I would say are equal or
>worse - obviously 1 is Stackhouse and the 2nd is still up in the air in
>Arenas.  Take out those two and you are in pretty elite company.
>Arguably, some of the other guys who are getting older (Kidd and AI)
are
>being rewarded for service prior to those years.  However, it's a
pretty
>elite list.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Shawn Niles [mailto:shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:55 PM
>To: sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>Cc: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx; jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; celtics@xxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head
>
>He just had surgery to fix the knee problems you speak of. It's also
>debatable as to whether or not his desire can be questioned. Probably
>best
>to let this thread die off since both sides are pretty much based on
>opinion. As has been stated, only time will tell the tale of this one.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/fantasybasketballfederation/salaries.htm#t2
>
>
>
> >From: Sean Giovanello <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >To: Shawn Niles <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >CC: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx,  jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
celtics@xxxxxxxx
> >Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head
> >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:43:19 -0500
> >
> >Raef will be tradeable in the last year of his contract. Bad knees,
> >questionable desire, and 5 years remaining at escalating dollar
amounts
>
> >make him pretty unattractive.
> >
> >For all the other moves, I agree that that contracts are tradeable
and
>if
> >the market isnt there at a dollar amount that we can ride them out.
To
>me,
> >thats why Raef is so problematic. It runs contrary to what you assume
>this
> >team was about under ainge. It indicates to me that personal distaste
>got
> >in the way of business sense. I understand that many disagree with
the
>idea
> >that he can be traded - however many believe that he had one of the
>worst
> >contracts in recent years and that he was a player and contract
Dallas
>was
> >DESPERATE to move at almost any cost.
> >
> >The one saving grace in this trade is Vin Baker. If Vin had not drank
> >himself out of a job, the Raef contract would have grown more onerous
>each
> >year as we would be stuck with 2 max and one creeping closer to max
>deal
> >(if someone can confirm the dollars per year on Raefs remaining
>contract I
> >would appreciate I have not been able to find it). That would have
>greatly
> >reduced flexibility and left Danny with very few options for this
year
>and
> >next year outside of the midlevel.
> >
> >As for his age, he is going to be 29 this year I think. Thats a
veteran
>in
> >this league - not a youngster. That being said, if his knee holds up
>and
> >with chronic knee problems the trend is the other way, he could be a
> >productive player in the league for another 5-7 years. I am not
arguing
>
> >that he cant play. Its just when you lump in his contract he becomes
a
> >pretty unattractive guy to have on your team in an era of cap and tax
>and a
> >limited pockets ownership in Boston.
> >
> >
> >Shawn Niles wrote:
> >
> >>Many would argue that every one of Danny's trades have been for guys
>that
> >>have more talent than the ones he shipped out.. AND.. that he has
not
> >>taken on any unmovable contracts. You say Raef could never be
traded.
>Many
> >>disagree with that. He was traded to us, wasn't he? And now another
>year
> >>is gone from his deal since then, which if we go by your Antoine
>logic,
> >>only makes Raef's deal more attractive. Plus, despite your saying
that
>he
> >>is not, Raef IS actually a young guy.
> >>
> >>Ricky could easily be moved. Same with Mihm, Atkins, or Stewart.
Danny
>is
> >>not taking on contracts that he will be stuck with. He could move
>anyone
> >>on this roster at any time.
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: Sean Giovanello <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>To: Shawn Niles <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>CC: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx, jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
celtics@xxxxxxxx
> >>>Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head
> >>>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:35:39 -0500
> >>>
> >>>If you have a guy that can judge talent it can work. If you have a
>guy
> >>>who is not universally hated (Krause), it can work. There are risks
>to
> >>>every strategy. Regardless, I am not talking about nuking the Celts
>down
> >>>to a CBA roster and playing for draft picks and the hope to lure a
>prize
> >>>free agent and rebuild. I am talking about a strategy for
> >>>building/managing a team (I call it the anti-Pitino philosophy)
where
>you
> >>>try never to take on a contract you will have trouble moving and in
>every
> >>>deal you want to be sensitive to those issues. About the only time
>you
> >>>would want a long term contract is when its a young guy at a
>reasonable
> >>>salary or if you are getting an elite player. Raef is neither of
>those. I
> >>>think its moves that ignore this that doom a team like the C's. If
>Danny
> >>>does not realize that, I think that regardless of his eye for
talent
> >>>(which he has) that he will ultimately be a failure here.
> >>>
> >>>Shawn Niles wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Clearing cap space worked really well for Orlando and Chicago.
Teams
>are
> >>>>starting to realize that clearing cap space is not the best way to
>build
> >>>>your team.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>From: "Sean Giovanello" <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>To: <Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx>, <jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> >>>>><celtics@xxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>Subject: RE: Twan rearing his ugly head
> >>>>>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:56:29 -0500
> >>>>>
> >>>>>***
> >>>>>Something you never explain, Sean, is just what other trade was
out
> >>>>>there
> >>>>>that was better than what we got?
> >>>>>****
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Right before the season started? Probably nothing. There are very
>very
> >>>>>few deals available at that time of year. So, we were dealing at
>the
> >>>>>wrong time of year, unless you truly believe that Toine was such
a
> >>>>>cancer he had to be dealt immediately. If that's the case, why
>wasn't
> >>>>>he dealt over the summer?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>My point in all of this is simple NBA logic. As a players
contract
> >>>>>comes closer and closer to being up, his contract gets more
>valuable.
> >>>>>Ideally, Walker could have been dealt before the deadline this
year
>
> >>>>>and,
> >>>>>if not, during the offseason or next season at the deadline. At
>each
> >>>>>point, IN THEORY, his contract becomes more valuable as a trading
>chit.
> >>>>>I am not claiming omnipotence or farseeing abilities here. I am
>just
> >>>>>using NBA logic here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>***
> >>>>>If Walker opts out this year which I think is 50-50 after
listening
>to
> >>>>>his radio show last night, the Mavs like the Cs would get nothing
>for
> >>>>>him.
> >>>>>***
> >>>>>
> >>>>>We would get nothing except shedding a max contract - 14 million
> >>>>>dollars
> >>>>>per annum!!!! Considering its looking like we have been amazingly
>lucky
> >>>>>shedding Vin to then lose Antoine for nothing as you say would be
> >>>>>amazing luck. Where would it have left our cap to take Walker and
>Baker
> >>>>>off? Fundamentally, we have a disagreement over rebuilding here.
I
> >>>>>think the way to rebuild is to create cap flexibility, which we
>really
> >>>>>have not. I think creating some space lets you be a player in
>almost
> >>>>>anything going on in the NBA - draft, free agency, and trades. If
>he
> >>>>>opted out, and even in light of his comments last night, I do not
>think
> >>>>>it likely, its not a bad thing. The argument from this view would
>be
> >>>>>that if he opted out we would clear some major cap room, not be
>saddled
> >>>>>with Raef's escalating deal (which I think pays him close to the
>max
> >>>>>the
> >>>>>last two years), and so forth. We would not have Jiri and we
would
>not
> >>>>>have Atkins. We would not have the first rounder. However, I
think
> >>>>>most teams would follow the course I have laid out rather than
what
> >>>>>Danny has done.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I fully admit I might be wrong. Nothing is certain in life. I
don't
> >>>>>really have a side here. I liked Toine, but knew he was going to
be
> >>>>>traded. I think he would have had more value down the road, but
>that
> >>>>>being said I like Jiri on this team. I just think the longer this
>deal
> >>>>>goes (unless we get insanely lucky on this pick) that we will be
>saying
> >>>>>it might have been better to keep Cyber Toine for a few more
months
> >>>>>rather than take Raef.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>From: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx [mailto:Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx]
> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:28 AM
> >>>>>To: sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx; jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> >>>>>celtics@xxxxxxxx
> >>>>>Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Something you never explain, Sean, is just what other trade was
out
> >>>>>there
> >>>>>that was better than what we got? If Walker opts out this year
>which I
> >>>>>think is
> >>>>>50-50 after listening to his radio show last night, the Mavs like
>the
> >>>>>Cs
> >>>>>would
> >>>>>get nothing for him. If he doesn't opt out, why do you think a
>better
> >>>>>deal is
> >>>>>out there, even for the Mavs? Look at what we got for Mills
>expiring
> >>>>>deal,
> >>>>>Atkins and a no. 1. Yeah, the Blazers got more for Wallace's
>contract
> >>>>>but he is
> >>>>>better than Twan.....
> >>>>>
> >>>>>DJessen33
> >>>>>
> >>>>><< I think its highly unlikely that he will - but if there were a
>guy
> >>>>>who
> >>>>>would do it, I think it would be Antoine.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I don't agree with you on Raef, but time will tell which of us is
> >>>>>right.
> >>>>>I just think his talent doesn't justify his salary and that if I
>recall
> >>>>>correctly due to the way his contract is structured his salary is
>not
> >>>>>an
> >>>>>even 10 per season, but goes up each year.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I like what we got in return - my point was just that we (as in
the
> >>>>>Celtics and their fans) value that stuff a lot more than Dallas
>did.
> >>>>>Mills meant very little to Dallas cause Cuban has a lot deeper
>pockets
> >>>>>and is willing to dip into them. For the draft pick, there are
> >>>>>probably
> >>>>>a lot of teams who wouldn't be wild about the 27th pick in the
>first
> >>>>>round - Danny thinks he can get something or use it in a deal to
>net
> >>>>>something back. If he does, excellent. For Dallas, its not that
big
> >>>>>of
> >>>>>a deal. For Jiri, I am not sure he will be a above average NBA
>starter
> >>>>>- but it looks like he might be just what this team or any team
>needs
> >>>>>--> a smart, heady player with some skill and some toughness. I
>don't
> >>>>>think he is the answer, but he is certainly a piece of the puzzle
>to
> >>>>>building a winning team here. Again, for Dallas, they already
have
> >>>>>that
> >>>>>and thus he goes to being a key cog here versus a minor bit part
>there.
> >>>>>None of this is my attempt to run down the extras in this deal -
I
>just
> >>>>>don't agree with Raef coming back due to a) his contract b) his
>skills
> >>>>>and c)the idea that getting rid of cap space and financial
>flexibility
> >>>>>for anything less than a true star is bad business in the NBA...
>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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>

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