RE: "inaccurate" "cheap shots"

["Thomas Murphy" <tfmiii@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

WOW! Talk about knickers in a twist...

And to think that after reading the messages that came after your first post
I initially felt bad about having mentioned JJ (who--contrary to your
multiple, emphatic denials--WAS drafted by Wallace and coached by Obie along
with Kedrick and Forte).

I can understand if you get upset about people being unfairly blamed, since
that was precisely the point of my previous post -- Ainge was NOT blaming
Obie, or anyone in particular; hence your response unfairly blamed Ainge.
The framing of the quotes made it seem otherwise, but if you read the actual
quote you can see Ainge wasn't saying anything with regard to his philosophy
that he hasn't said since he rejoined the Cs.

I thought I made it quite clear that it was obviously the reporter that
framed the quotes, in fact I wrote that: >>that "interpretation" was
interpolated into the quote by the reporter.<<

I thought you were guilty of swallowing the frame, running with it, but
creating it? Are you writing for the Boston sportspages now? If so,
congratulations!

As for far too much talk about "40 minutes" -- what are YOU talking about?
Ainge restates for the umpteenth time his philosophy of developing young
players for the future, and tosses off a comment about 40 minutes. Well, we
could count the number of times it has happened (and that would still fall
under Obie's watch, contrary to your claim) but I thought we could all agree
that the basic point Ainge was trying to make is that one should not lavish
excessive minutes on players who are tapped out in terms of potential and
development. Now we could make a fetish of the number 40 and say that 39
minutes for Waltah and zero for Hunter are fine, but would that really be in
keeping with the spirit of Ainge's comments? Am I somehow terribly twisting
things by pointing out the difference between arguing (as you did) on the
narrow basis of the "letter" of a single comment rather than on the "spirit"
of Ainge's remarks?

My attempt to acknowledge that factoring in time for player development was
the basic point of Ainge's comments is far different from the type of
twisting that was done to Ainge's quotes, making them seem as if he were
directly blaming Obie and Obie alone for the failure to develop players for
the past six years. (I guess Ainge isn't the only one to have his quotes
twisted lately, given Bulpett's gloss on Ricky D it seems that Paul has been
victimized too.) After all, why else would Ainge mention Chauncey if he were
really trying--as you so readily assumed--to pin all of this on Obie? And
no, I don't think you can blame it on Ainge's brain turning off because he
was "pissed."

So even though you're the one slamming Ainge for "cheap shots" and being
"inaccurate" (yes, I consider those "slams," what do you consider
them--praise?), you can't even be bothered to understand what Ainge actually
said.

And yet--somehow--you're the injured party? And I'm biased?

*shrug*

You can mow down all the strawmen you want ("the Cs owners are the most
credible people on earth about everything," "I didn't distort or frame his
quotes")--hey, whatever floats your boat... but it won't change the facts of
the matter--you jumped all over Ainge ("inaccurate" "cheap shots") for
things he simply did not say.

And please, you don't need to concern yourself over whether I can handle
"the way most people on this board talk." I enjoy the clash of opinions,
particularly when they are accurate and well reasoned.

I would suggest, therefore, that before you start slamming other people for
having "delicate sensibilities," you take a deep breath, calm down and turn
your brain back on. <g>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:28:14 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Kim <kimmalo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: ok:  who coached JJ?

Yeah, sorry, I was pissed off, which tends to turn my brain off ,and so made
the same mistake again. My error. Although as I keep saying with greater
accuracy <g>, since the same thing occurred for 2 years in Phoenix - the
Phoenix people were still talking about the same problems on the radio
broadcast when they were in town this year, even though he's been more
consistant this season - I still think people are wrong in blaming Obie.
*shrug* whatever I guess.
Kim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:45:10 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Kim <kimmalo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: "It's not only shortsighted, it's obstinate."-Globe

No, JJ was still primarily under Pitino, whether you like it or not. And did
get his minutes until he played his way back onto the pine - EXACTLY as he
did in serial fashion for most of his tenure in Phoenix, which should make
it clear where the issues were. Everyone loves his skills but his
passiveness will break your heart.

Yes Walter's minutes went up at the time of the trade. I was pissed at the
time, as I do NOT love Walter as a basketball player, however fine a human
being he may be. However there's been far too much talk of his getting 40
min per game here, as if that were a constant occurance. It's not. And
whether you think I'm taking the 40 minutes too literally or not, that is
literally what was said. Anything else is you twisting what was said to
better suit your own point (see your own comments about distorting or
framing what someone else says - apparently it's only wrong when you can
accuse someone else of doing it?).  Funny, BTW, how suddenly the Cs owners
are the most credible people on earth about everything. While I really fail
to see where I'm trying to whitewash anything, although of course to someone
already biased the other way...

And if you think I *really* slammed Ainge, you must really find the way most
people on this board talk of anyone far too much for your delicate
sensibilities. Except of course when their biases follow yours, I expect. I
didn't distort or frame his quotes. I responded to a post about them. If
that post was wrong, then go get your knickers in a twist at the person who
deserves it.
Kim

- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Murphy <tfmiii@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Feb 28, 2004 3:22 PM
To: Celtic list <celtics@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: "It's not only shortsighted, it's obstinate."-Globe

Speaking of inaccurate....

JJ WAS under Obie's watch.

And as far as minutes for McCarty -- they exploded after the Davis trade,
which as I recall was the point when Wyc said that the coaching staff
basically went on strike (an assessment I can agree with). If you want to
discuss when Obie's "obstinacy" became untenable, I suggest you focus on
that the time frame after that trade, and not try to whitewash or obscure
the extent of the "coach revolt."

Also I think your taking the the "40 minutes" comment far too literally,
which fails to credit the point of the comment, something I think we all can
understand. And in any case, McCarty's minutes actually dropped under
Carroll -- even before the Hunter experiment got off the ground. McCarty's
minutes reached their zenith under Obie during the "coach revolt." I know, I
went back and reviewed the numbers.

Finally, I don't recall Ainge singling out any particular person (Obie) in
his comments -- that "interpretation" was interpolated into the quote by the
reporter.

<< "Another key to the vision is a greater emphasis on developing young
 players," said Ainge, defending himself against O'Brien's army of
 supporters. "I feel like players like Joe Johnson and Chauncey Billups
 should be able to develop.">>

Ainge was instead quite clearly talking about different visions or
philosophies not individuals, and given that, it makes perfect sense for him
to talk about Chauncey. Although it may be very tempting to read every
comment Ainge makes about his vision as a personal slam against Obie
(particularly given the current press obsession with the "noble coach"
trope), I would caution against it. It leads to an inaccurate reading of
what Ainge actually said.

Now if you *really* feel the urge to slam Ainge, I humbly suggest you look
up what he says about Neidnagel. No need to distort or "frame" his quotes
with regard to that matter.

Cheers - TomM

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:27:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Kim <kimmalo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Celtics' Stuff ] "It's not only shortsighted, it's
obstinate."-Globe

It's also inaccurate and cheap shots. JJ and Billups were of course on
Pitino's watch, not Obie.  Blount's 40 min games have been relatively few
and almost all since Obie left, with Walter's even fewer and ditto on
timing. Nor was Marcus only playing 10 min a night. While Ainge himself,
after Obie left,  said that Perkins would not see much more PT this season
because he was developing but not really ready.