Re: [Celtics' Stuff Payton will be looking for a ring

["Sean Giovanello" <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

First off.  The posts on here ripping Antoine since the end of the playoffs
have bordered on the absurd.  To take the anti-Antoine threads as a whole
says this guy sucks, he is overpaid, he ruins this team, and no one would
ever want him unless they were stupid.    Disliking his game is different
from saying he sucks - that just shows that whoever is saying it doesnt
really know their hoops.   If you say Vin Baker sucks - well that is
perfectly logical.

Tell me, what power forwards would you rather have than Antoine?  Certainly
Webber and Garnett come to mind.  Malone - I would say he is too old.
Jermaine O'Neal I would take.  Who else?

You say its hard to trade Antoine at his salary - of course it is.  In a
league where the cap exists and the luxury tax is looming - why would you
expect different?  Could you trade him - of course.  The question is whether
you could get enough in return for him.  That would be difficult given that
the salaries have to match.

Does any of that mean that Antoine hasnt deserved his contract?  Hell no.
He logs tons of minutes, plays hard night in and night out, and performs at
a level well above average in the NBA.  He has also due to the shitty GM
work, poor coaching, and shitty systems he has been in had the leeway to
indulge in all his worst habits.  I still firmly believe that if Larry Brown
had been named coach over Pitino we would not have been having this
discussion.  If the Celts luck or trade into Hinrich or trade for a point
guard that can play you will see a very different Antoine.  Will he still
take some stupid threes?  Will he still spend a little too much time on the
perimeter?  I would say definately.

And for all those people talking about three years of declining numbers the
last three seasons, his numbers have gone down as the team has gotten
better.  He obviously defers to Pierce on the offensive end.  He has also
been forced to pretty much play POINT FORWARD!  Any big man with some skill
would love to do this and all of us would like to see him down on the block
75 percent of the time, but given the alternatives with the PG situation the
past couple years how can you blame him or OB?  For this team to win as
constituted, they have determined (and probably rightly) that they need to
run most everything through him.  Thats not because he sucks, but because he
is skilled.

Is he infuriating at times, hell yeah.  But this stupid Antoine sucks crap
and no one would ever want him is stupid.  For any three time all-star on
the underside of 30 there is a market.  You just have to find the correct
deal to make that works financially, talent wise and so forth.

Also, in terms of Danny, people have got to realize he shouldnt be expected
to fix everything this year.  He should figure out his long term plan and
start implementing it.  If the team had done that under Pitino we wouldnt be
in this mess.  If the team had done that or had a clue before trading for
Baker, we wouldnt be screwed right now.

This team has two people who would start for more than 1/2 of the NBA teams
in the league - Walker and Pierce.  Thats it.  For them to go as far as they
have the past couple years is a tribute to their respective talents.  For
the team to equate this as success is silly.  This team is extremely flawed
as built and simply dumping Antoine for a PG is not going to fix it.  Show
some patience.  If we score a decent PG in this draft or via trade, I will
be happy.  Thats a huge step.   Bremer is an adequate backup and Delk is
fine in a microwave role.  You still need a center and a SF.  Maybe Baker
can help some.  If not, you gut it out this year with Battie and Blount and
make that target two.  Small forward - Ewill will be traded.  Barring a
dramatic turnaround, Kedrick isnt the answer.  So you need a SF as well.  I
think the perfect guy for this role that will be cheaper than the midlevel
exception would be Lee Nailon.  He signed (if i recall) a one year contract
for the veteran minimum last year.  If you grab him, even if its for a lil
more than that, you have a guy to fill in for a year or so while the second
pick from this year develops.  There are some short term steps that can be
taken to help this team on the cheap.  Anything more than that is almosti
mpossible unless you are willing to blow things up.

This will hopefully be about baby steps in the right direction.  I would
rather see us take minimal risk and have a real chance at the finals in 2-3
years than blow things up and run the risk on being 5 years away.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James A. Hill" <jahill@leasingservice.com>
To: "'Sean Giovanello'" <sgiovanello@norwoodlight.com>; "Celtics (E-mail)"
<celtics@igtc.com>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: [Celtics' Stuff Payton will be looking for a ring


> Agenda?  Nonsense.  Just because you like Walker doesn't mean everyone
else
> does.  I like his "heart" but don't like his game.  Sure there is a few
> teams where Walker would be an upgrade at PF such as NO, Toronto, Bucks,
LA.
> But not Chicago.  Think any of the them would take Walker @ $12M-$14M per
> year?
>
> However the question on the table was trading Walker to Chicago.  Do you
> really think Chicago is going to bench Chandler?  Do you think they will
> limit Chandler's minutes to "6" after his draft position? Take away the
> money consideration and do you think Chicago would even trade Chandler for
> Walker straight up?  Three all star games not withstanding, of course.
>
> Hence my comment:  "Heck, checking reality would be a good start."
Chicago
> has no need for Walker and where you see a three time all star in Walker I
> see the future of the NBA in 6'11"-7' PF's like Gasol, Nowitski, Brown and
> Chandler (who may soon be an all star himself) and wouldn't be giving up
> playing time if Walker was traded to Chicago.
>
> I think that it is someone other then me with the agenda.
>
> <Jim
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Giovanello [mailto:sgiovanello@norwoodlight.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 8:33 AM
> To: James A. Hill; Celtics (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: [Celtics' Stuff Payton will be looking for a ring
>
>
> You can also phrase that as a three time all-star, power forward who can
> beat you off the dribble, help run the offense due to his ball-handling
and
> passing skills, and brings a whole lot of leadership to a team.  Most
teams,
> I would imagine, see Walker for what he is...an fairly unique player (by
NBA
> standards) who brings a hell of a lot more to the table than he takes off.
>
> One of the problems on this list is that many of the posters look to score
> cheap points and/or either denigrate/praise everything about the Cs.  It
> really hampers the discourse when many people on here have an agenda and
are
> sticking to it.  I have been on here for a while and it seems to
intelligent
> basketball talk is almost drowned out by the drivel.  I truly wish there
was
> a basketball version of the Sons of Sam Horn...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James A. Hill" <jahill@leasingservice.com>
> To: "Celtics (E-mail)" <celtics@igtc.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 11:32 PM
> Subject: RE: [Celtics' Stuff Payton will be looking for a ring
>
>
> > Heck, checking reality would be a good start.  Why would Chicago even
want
> > Walker?  You need a team that needs an undersized, leaping challenged,
> > outside playing, max contract PF to consider a trade with.  Chicago
> "ain't"
> > one of them.  Not sure who is.
> >
> > <Jim
> >
> >
> > >You guys really should check RealGM before proposing trades.  These
> > salaries don't add up.
> > >And before anyone says "cap crap", to balance this Walker deal, even
> > without Delk, would require the addition of Eddie >Robinson or Donyell
> > Marshall.
> >
> > >>On Sat, 24 May 2003 22:13:30 -0700 John Lyell  wrote:
> > ><I was thinking a Walker and say Delk for Williams , Fizer or Robinson,
> and
> > >>Hassell would work.