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Re: [Celtics' Stuff Some pregame notes
On Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 12:11 PM, Celtic4Hire@aol.com wrote:
> He and Delk didn't come out of the locker room at half time
> until 12 seconds before the start of the third....
>
> DJessen33
> ********************
Verrrry interrrestink.
As I wrote earlier, I suspect that O'Brien has a very small window to
get Baker comfortably into his rotation, or we may never see any
contribution from Vin.
JB
**********************
When the Celts were falling apart in the 2nd quarter, he
just left in all the starters who weren't getting back at all on D.
Why didn't he yank one of the stars and put in Kedrick who would have
atleast played some D on Nash to prevent him from driving in and
kicking the ball out to an open man. There's no excuse for Baker to
stay on the bench in the 4th.
ckw4b
**************************************
This is an astute observation; a serious issue, calling on O'Brien's
integrity, as well as his coaching ability.
Did Baker really not play because of match-ups, when the team was
being blown out in the second quarter?
Does anyone else remember a game against Dallas a few years ago, in
the Fleet, when the C's were blowing the Mav's out early and Nellie
pulled all of his starters, let the scrubs play and they came back and
beat us?
When your team is not making the effort, that should be the rule. This
game was over before halftime; you knew it, I knew it, the TV
announcers knew it and so should have O'Brien.There was a moment or two
early in the third period, when Pierce decided he was going to shoot
every time down the floor and hit a few threes, to get the game down
to 18, I think, but then he went coast to coast, got tangled up and
Dallas scored. On the next possession he got stripped outside; Dallas
got another easy bucket and even Yogi Berra got that message.
What did he have to lose by inserting Baker, or Brown ? Why not also
give some extra minutes to Bremer and Moore? These guys are all hungry
to prove something and at least would have competed hard. If not, he
could have pulled them right back out. Particularly, Moore. He's here
on a ten day and you get blown out and only find him three minutes? How
will O'Brien know what he can do in a game, if he doesn't utilize these
type of opportunities?
JB
Unchain My Heart !
****************************************
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "ckw4b <ckw4b@yahoo.com>" <ckw4b@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:11:02 PM US/Eastern
> To: Celticsstuffgroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Celtics' Stuff Game Ball
> Reply-To: Celticsstuffgroup@yahoogroups.com
>
> Excellent post.
>
> However, I would have to lay the majority of the blame on Obie. I was
> just yelling in frustration watching last nights game. All this talk
> of matchup problems is just pure crap.
>
> First off, besides Bradley and LaFrentz, Dallas has ZERO inside
> presence. Dirk's game consists mostly of fadeaways from the 12-15
> range and three pointers. I didn't see him drive to the basket once
> last night. That being said, I just don't understand why Obie didn't
> put Baker in to establish a Celtic inside presence.
>
> I also think that Walter must have some sort of incriminating evidence
> on Obie because there is no reason for him to play unless the Celts
> are down by 20 (which they have been in the last few games). Walter
> has minimal offensive skills and all this talk about his defensive
> prowess is pure baloney. I watched on three consecutive plays Finley
> shooting WIDE open shots.
>
> My biggest complaint though is that Obie never does anything to mix
> things up. When the Celts were falling apart in the 2nd quarter, he
> just left in all the starters who weren't getting back at all on D.
> Why didn't he yank one of the stars and put in Kedrick who would have
> atleast played some D on Nash to prevent him from driving in and
> kicking the ball out to an open man. There's no excuse for Baker to
> stay on the bench in the 4th.
>
> I'm really just tired of Obie. He may have the Celtics in 2nd in the
> Atlantic right now, but that's because everyone else in the East
> stinks. I hope the new owners come to their senses and realize that
> Obie was a nice interim coach who got lucky one year because most of
> the NBA teams hadn't adjusted to the zone. Let's get ourselves a real
> coach like DJ or better yet, Larry Legend himself.
>
> --- In Celticsstuffgroup@yahoogroups.com, JB <JimMetz@m...> wrote:
> >
> > On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 11:47 PM, hironaka@n... wrote:
> >
> > > Sometimes I think Obie is overdoing the blackball tactics
> > > on Vin just to get Chris Wall-Ass and Leo Pap-smear fired
> > > for reckless incompetence. If that's the case, I hope
> > > management gets the hint and preferably sides with Obie
> > > on this issue, all things considered.
> > >
> > > Joe H.
> > > *******************
> > What else is there to think? That Baker just sucks, or that
> O'Brien
> > thinks he dogs it? The parts of recent games I've seen, Baker made a
> > few tough defensive plays, to show signs he could be helpful. Unless
> > O'Brien reverses himself, quickly (Baker reportedly played very well
> in
> > last years playoffs against Tim Duncan) and plays Vin, decent
> minutes
> > at San Antonio, we may have lost all chance that Baker could
> contribute
> > to this team; EVER. Remember, this is a player with a history of low
> > self esteem.
> > All of the talk about Wallace and Papile blowing the draft and
> trading
> > the future for Baker, has to be getting under the skin of ownership.
> > Look at it this way: even if, we kept Anderson, this season and were
> > (possibly)1 million dollars more, over the tax threshold, for this
> one
> > year only; by signing Baker, we'll pay 12 million over each of the
> next
> > four years, instead of being able to use a 5 million dollar
> exception,
> > to get a pretty decent player, with a savings of 7 million each
> year.
> > Was a one year savings of the tax worth that? Who will be the next
> Keon
> > Clark? Anyone with foresight, should have been able to see that
> there
> > will be a plethora of such players, at least as good as Baker,
> > available each summer. Imagine if we had that 5 million
> (there's
> also
> > a 2.5 million alternate year exception, we could use and still be
> five
> > million to the good)to spend next summer? We'd have some hope, for
> > something other than two late round rookies and two more minimum
> > wagers, while probably losing Shammond Williams. I also contend that
> > Joe Forte will be every bit the player that Shammond Williams is, at
> > the same stage in his career, which brings us back to O'Brien.
> > With all of the above, noted shortcomings, of Wallace, is
> O'Brien
> > really not as much to blame? Who brought in the post guru,
> Gallagher?
> > Don't you think that Jimmy wanted a post player, like Baker, to
> > develop that part of the game?
> > Who auditioned Bremer and within the space of two summer
> league games
> > anointed him as the free agent point guard? Who did the same with
> > Sundov and Wolkowyski, as the choices for the front court? Wallace
> > brought in a slew of players for Jimmy to look at and the coach
> made
> > those choices. When Wolkowyski was signed, Jimmy was quoted as
> saying
> > that he didn't want bangers, he wanted big men who could run and
> pass.
> > Instead of having S. Williams, K. Brown and W. McCarty as our 10-12
> > players, as they should be, they are our 7-9. This is the major
> problem
> > with this year's team.
> > Not only did Chris Wallace draft and trade badly, but the
> other
> > botched talent evaluations have to fall on O'Brien's shoulders for
> > insisting on acquiring players to fit a system that isn't working.
> This
> > could be as damaging as the Baker contract, as who (perhaps aside
> from
> > Bird) will ever be able to break Walker and Pierce, of their
> > envisioned entitlement, to control the offense. One or the other of
> > them may have to be traded to head this team in the direction of
> > another championship and either way. IMHO, it's going to take five
> > years to get back to where we were at the end of last season.
> > No, I think the move is to clean house, if this team doesn't
> turn
> > around. O'Brien has made his contribution by bringing in Harter and
> > getting the team to learn and play some defense; I believe this is
> as
> > far as he can take them.
> > Compare the recent demise of Philadelphia, the inability of Air
> Carter
> > in Toronto at the end of last season, the struggles in Orlando and
> the
> > recent fall of the Celtics and compare those teams, who rely on
> their
> > scorers to control the offense, with the Nets, Pistons, Suns,Kings,
> > Mavericks and Pacers and you might see a trend. Teams with point
> guards
> > and motion are winning. Teams with ball hogs/ great one on one
> players,
> > are losing.
> > Perhaps it's the new defensive rules which have caused this
> change in
> > the basic fabric of the NBA. Wouldn't that be ironic? The same
> > defensive changes that brought O'Brien to glory, may become his
> > downfall. It's a shame he only understands one side of the equation.
> > I've never wished for a team to lose, but if a real free fall
> gets
> > the team in dissension; the new owners might decide, only a Larry
> Bird
> > has the cachet to come in and fix the mess and he sees a lottery
> pick
> > and another decent pick from Philly on the table, with a commitment
> > from an exasperated ownership, desperate to make the playoffs and
> > shore up a frustrated fan base and accepts an offer, I believe that
> > would be the best chance that this team can overcome; the anchor of
> > Vin Baker around their financial necks and the debilitating,
> > psychological texture, of a team that allows it's scorers to control
> > the offense.
> >
> > JB
> >
> > Unchain My Heart !
> >
> ***********************************************************************
> *
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> > Dallas spot starter Adrian Griffin established the tone
> > in a tight game with his seven offensive boards, mostly
> > in the first half. It could have gone either way until he
> > stepped up, with Battie setting a similar tone on the
> > other end. Some of those offensive boards were so "Yo
> > Adrian" old school it put a big smile on my face, to the
> > degree that it was all about his timing and a sixth senth
> > about where to be when.
> >
> > Dallas makes the rain pour once momentum is in their
> > favor. They will choke under intense pressure, I'm
> > convinced, but Boston was unable to lay wood on them.
> >
> > Boston's unwillingness to add depth by signing at minimum
> > wage a born-to-be-a-Boston-Celtic type player like Adrian
> > underscores the competitive disadvantage we face against
> > the Mark Cubans of the world.
> >
> > It also highlights what a this line separates success and
> > fireable incompetence. Few of us would bash the overall
> > Celtics 2001 draft had we not blown the 21st pick on a
> > freaking third shooting guard, thus ending Griffin's
> > tenure as a Celtic, among other things. Number 21 was the
> > actual "sweet spot" of the draft, stacked with proven
> > college prospects downgraded by the teen fetish.
> >
> > That's how muddled the whole draft blame game becomes.
> > Forte was Red Auerbach's pick, of course. But Wallace
> > gets the blame and probably ought to accept it.
> >
> > A lot of us talked up Gilbert Arenas, who BTW is putting
> > up frankly unique numbers across the NBA in terms of
> > rebounds+assists already. He is incredibly young for a
> > second year player, and he can also score the ball.
> > Others really liked Tony Parker and Jamaal Tinsley, with
> > reason. I'm not convinced the latter two would have seen
> > as many minutes in Obie's system (they are 10 second ball
> > hogs who can't shoot to save Wyc's wife's life), but
> > either could have impacted our feelings about the
> > Celtics' draft.
> >
> > As a matter of principal, I wanted Boston to win at least
> > one quarter, and I'm glad we held Dallas to 11 points in
> > the fourth quarter, in what otherwise could easily have
> > been a repeat of the Sac-NJ game last night or worse.
> >
> > Perhaps coincidentally, the defensive stand began with
> > Kedrick finally entering the game. I hope Obie gets the
> > hint...play your best ball defenders with the captains.
> > Let's try to play defense to remember for the rest of
> > this Texas trip. If you have confidence in your defense,
> > everything else will fall into place.
> >
> > All I ask as a fan is that no team beats the Celtics on
> > hustle or focus the rest of the way, win or lose. Talent,
> > whatever, but let hustle and no quit be our defining
> > attribute the rest of the way..
> >
> > Obie is not the greatest game coach, in terms of timing
> > time outs and the impact he can coax out of the huddle.
> >
> > As for Vin Baker, I hope they have it squared away
> > privately, since the DNP-CD was a nationally
> > televised "dis".
> >
> > Sometimes I think Obie is overdoing the blackball tactics
> > on Vin just to get Chris Wall-Ass and Leo Pap-smear fired
> > for reckless incompetence. If that's the case, I hope
> > management gets the hint and preferably sides with Obie
> > on this issue, all things considered.
> >
> > Joe H.
> > -------------------
> > L'e-mail gratuit pas comme les autres.
> > NOMADE.FR, pourquoi chercher ailleurs ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Boston Celtics' fans; looking for inspiration,intellect and humor.
> >
> > Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/join
> > Home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
> Boston Celtics' fans; looking for inspiration,intellect and humor.
>
> Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/join
> Home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "ckw4b <ckw4b@yahoo.com>" <ckw4b@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:11:02 PM US/Eastern
> To: Celticsstuffgroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Celtics' Stuff Game Ball
> Reply-To: Celticsstuffgroup@yahoogroups.com
>
> Excellent post.
>
> However, I would have to lay the majority of the blame on Obie. I was
> just yelling in frustration watching last nights game. All this talk
> of matchup problems is just pure crap.
>
> First off, besides Bradley and LaFrentz, Dallas has ZERO inside
> presence. Dirk's game consists mostly of fadeaways from the 12-15
> range and three pointers. I didn't see him drive to the basket once
> last night. That being said, I just don't understand why Obie didn't
> put Baker in to establish a Celtic inside presence.
>
> I also think that Walter must have some sort of incriminating evidence
> on Obie because there is no reason for him to play unless the Celts
> are down by 20 (which they have been in the last few games). Walter
> has minimal offensive skills and all this talk about his defensive
> prowess is pure baloney. I watched on three consecutive plays Finley
> shooting WIDE open shots.
>
> My biggest complaint though is that Obie never does anything to mix
> things up. When the Celts were falling apart in the 2nd quarter, he
> just left in all the starters who weren't getting back at all on D.
> Why didn't he yank one of the stars and put in Kedrick who would have
> atleast played some D on Nash to prevent him from driving in and
> kicking the ball out to an open man. There's no excuse for Baker to
> stay on the bench in the 4th.
>
> I'm really just tired of Obie. He may have the Celtics in 2nd in the
> Atlantic right now, but that's because everyone else in the East
> stinks. I hope the new owners come to their senses and realize that
> Obie was a nice interim coach who got lucky one year because most of
> the NBA teams hadn't adjusted to the zone. Let's get ourselves a real
> coach like DJ or better yet, Larry Legend himself.
>
> --- In Celticsstuffgroup@yahoogroups.com, JB <JimMetz@m...> wrote:
> >
> > On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 11:47 PM, hironaka@n... wrote:
> >
> > > Sometimes I think Obie is overdoing the blackball tactics
> > > on Vin just to get Chris Wall-Ass and Leo Pap-smear fired
> > > for reckless incompetence. If that's the case, I hope
> > > management gets the hint and preferably sides with Obie
> > > on this issue, all things considered.
> > >
> > > Joe H.
> > > *******************
> > What else is there to think? That Baker just sucks, or that
> O'Brien
> > thinks he dogs it? The parts of recent games I've seen, Baker made a
> > few tough defensive plays, to show signs he could be helpful. Unless
> > O'Brien reverses himself, quickly (Baker reportedly played very well
> in
> > last years playoffs against Tim Duncan) and plays Vin, decent
> minutes
> > at San Antonio, we may have lost all chance that Baker could
> contribute
> > to this team; EVER. Remember, this is a player with a history of low
> > self esteem.
> > All of the talk about Wallace and Papile blowing the draft and
> trading
> > the future for Baker, has to be getting under the skin of ownership.
> > Look at it this way: even if, we kept Anderson, this season and were
> > (possibly)1 million dollars more, over the tax threshold, for this
> one
> > year only; by signing Baker, we'll pay 12 million over each of the
> next
> > four years, instead of being able to use a 5 million dollar
> exception,
> > to get a pretty decent player, with a savings of 7 million each
> year.
> > Was a one year savings of the tax worth that? Who will be the next
> Keon
> > Clark? Anyone with foresight, should have been able to see that
> there
> > will be a plethora of such players, at least as good as Baker,
> > available each summer. Imagine if we had that 5 million
> (there's
> also
> > a 2.5 million alternate year exception, we could use and still be
> five
> > million to the good)to spend next summer? We'd have some hope, for
> > something other than two late round rookies and two more minimum
> > wagers, while probably losing Shammond Williams. I also contend that
> > Joe Forte will be every bit the player that Shammond Williams is, at
> > the same stage in his career, which brings us back to O'Brien.
> > With all of the above, noted shortcomings, of Wallace, is
> O'Brien
> > really not as much to blame? Who brought in the post guru,
> Gallagher?
> > Don't you think that Jimmy wanted a post player, like Baker, to
> > develop that part of the game?
> > Who auditioned Bremer and within the space of two summer
> league games
> > anointed him as the free agent point guard? Who did the same with
> > Sundov and Wolkowyski, as the choices for the front court? Wallace
> > brought in a slew of players for Jimmy to look at and the coach
> made
> > those choices. When Wolkowyski was signed, Jimmy was quoted as
> saying
> > that he didn't want bangers, he wanted big men who could run and
> pass.
> > Instead of having S. Williams, K. Brown and W. McCarty as our 10-12
> > players, as they should be, they are our 7-9. This is the major
> problem
> > with this year's team.
> > Not only did Chris Wallace draft and trade badly, but the
> other
> > botched talent evaluations have to fall on O'Brien's shoulders for
> > insisting on acquiring players to fit a system that isn't working.
> This
> > could be as damaging as the Baker contract, as who (perhaps aside
> from
> > Bird) will ever be able to break Walker and Pierce, of their
> > envisioned entitlement, to control the offense. One or the other of
> > them may have to be traded to head this team in the direction of
> > another championship and either way. IMHO, it's going to take five
> > years to get back to where we were at the end of last season.
> > No, I think the move is to clean house, if this team doesn't
> turn
> > around. O'Brien has made his contribution by bringing in Harter and
> > getting the team to learn and play some defense; I believe this is
> as
> > far as he can take them.
> > Compare the recent demise of Philadelphia, the inability of Air
> Carter
> > in Toronto at the end of last season, the struggles in Orlando and
> the
> > recent fall of the Celtics and compare those teams, who rely on
> their
> > scorers to control the offense, with the Nets, Pistons, Suns,Kings,
> > Mavericks and Pacers and you might see a trend. Teams with point
> guards
> > and motion are winning. Teams with ball hogs/ great one on one
> players,
> > are losing.
> > Perhaps it's the new defensive rules which have caused this
> change in
> > the basic fabric of the NBA. Wouldn't that be ironic? The same
> > defensive changes that brought O'Brien to glory, may become his
> > downfall. It's a shame he only understands one side of the equation.
> > I've never wished for a team to lose, but if a real free fall
> gets
> > the team in dissension; the new owners might decide, only a Larry
> Bird
> > has the cachet to come in and fix the mess and he sees a lottery
> pick
> > and another decent pick from Philly on the table, with a commitment
> > from an exasperated ownership, desperate to make the playoffs and
> > shore up a frustrated fan base and accepts an offer, I believe that
> > would be the best chance that this team can overcome; the anchor of
> > Vin Baker around their financial necks and the debilitating,
> > psychological texture, of a team that allows it's scorers to control
> > the offense.
> >
> > JB
> >
> > Unchain My Heart !
> >
> ***********************************************************************
> *
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> > Dallas spot starter Adrian Griffin established the tone
> > in a tight game with his seven offensive boards, mostly
> > in the first half. It could have gone either way until he
> > stepped up, with Battie setting a similar tone on the
> > other end. Some of those offensive boards were so "Yo
> > Adrian" old school it put a big smile on my face, to the
> > degree that it was all about his timing and a sixth senth
> > about where to be when.
> >
> > Dallas makes the rain pour once momentum is in their
> > favor. They will choke under intense pressure, I'm
> > convinced, but Boston was unable to lay wood on them.
> >
> > Boston's unwillingness to add depth by signing at minimum
> > wage a born-to-be-a-Boston-Celtic type player like Adrian
> > underscores the competitive disadvantage we face against
> > the Mark Cubans of the world.
> >
> > It also highlights what a this line separates success and
> > fireable incompetence. Few of us would bash the overall
> > Celtics 2001 draft had we not blown the 21st pick on a
> > freaking third shooting guard, thus ending Griffin's
> > tenure as a Celtic, among other things. Number 21 was the
> > actual "sweet spot" of the draft, stacked with proven
> > college prospects downgraded by the teen fetish.
> >
> > That's how muddled the whole draft blame game becomes.
> > Forte was Red Auerbach's pick, of course. But Wallace
> > gets the blame and probably ought to accept it.
> >
> > A lot of us talked up Gilbert Arenas, who BTW is putting
> > up frankly unique numbers across the NBA in terms of
> > rebounds+assists already. He is incredibly young for a
> > second year player, and he can also score the ball.
> > Others really liked Tony Parker and Jamaal Tinsley, with
> > reason. I'm not convinced the latter two would have seen
> > as many minutes in Obie's system (they are 10 second ball
> > hogs who can't shoot to save Wyc's wife's life), but
> > either could have impacted our feelings about the
> > Celtics' draft.
> >
> > As a matter of principal, I wanted Boston to win at least
> > one quarter, and I'm glad we held Dallas to 11 points in
> > the fourth quarter, in what otherwise could easily have
> > been a repeat of the Sac-NJ game last night or worse.
> >
> > Perhaps coincidentally, the defensive stand began with
> > Kedrick finally entering the game. I hope Obie gets the
> > hint...play your best ball defenders with the captains.
> > Let's try to play defense to remember for the rest of
> > this Texas trip. If you have confidence in your defense,
> > everything else will fall into place.
> >
> > All I ask as a fan is that no team beats the Celtics on
> > hustle or focus the rest of the way, win or lose. Talent,
> > whatever, but let hustle and no quit be our defining
> > attribute the rest of the way..
> >
> > Obie is not the greatest game coach, in terms of timing
> > time outs and the impact he can coax out of the huddle.
> >
> > As for Vin Baker, I hope they have it squared away
> > privately, since the DNP-CD was a nationally
> > televised "dis".
> >
> > Sometimes I think Obie is overdoing the blackball tactics
> > on Vin just to get Chris Wall-Ass and Leo Pap-smear fired
> > for reckless incompetence. If that's the case, I hope
> > management gets the hint and preferably sides with Obie
> > on this issue, all things considered.
> >
> > Joe H.
> > -------------------
> > L'e-mail gratuit pas comme les autres.
> > NOMADE.FR, pourquoi chercher ailleurs ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Boston Celtics' fans; looking for inspiration,intellect and humor.
> >
> > Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/join
> > Home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
> Boston Celtics' fans; looking for inspiration,intellect and humor.
>
> Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/join
> Home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.