Re: thoughts on this list and the Celtics

[Snoopy the Celtics Beagle <snoopy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

It'll be easier to put my replies after the relevant comments--well, easier 
for me, at least...here we go:
At 10:32 AM 4/11/03 -0700, Ryan W wrote:
>The most distressing aspect of this season has been
>the loss of sanity it has produced among both players
>and fans.  Per this list, previously fine posters like
>Kestus and Mark Berry have taken their heretofore
>objective slants and made it personal.

With apologies to anyone on the list in possession of a Journalism degree, 
it's SUPPOSED to be personal.  We are, after all, people.  If we weren't 
fans of the Celtics, we wouldn't BE here.  OK, it doesn't explain Way of 
the Ray, but I think of him as an anomaly in that particular.  :>))

I expect people here to be passionate.  Celtics fans aren't like the 
golfing crowd, clapping with one hand when someone hits the ball with the 
golf stick.  (or whatever it's called, I don't know any more about golf 
than Charles Schulz described in "Peanuts").  They yell, scream, stomp 
their feet, and PARTICIPATE.  Sometimes, given the chance, having the fans 
involved is like having an extra player on the court.  And those fans have 
always stuck with the team, despite the three point shots, Rick Pitino, ML 
Carr (as coach), and He Whose Name Shall Not Profane This List from 1978.

So it is here.  When you've been through the incredible ups and downs with 
the C's, it becomes personal.  So the posts are likewise 
personal.  Sometimes, yes, it gets out of hand.  But isn't it nice to be on 
a list where people really care about the subject at hand?  I'm a member of 
another list--non-Celtics--where there were a total of two posts in three 
years.  I'd forgotten I was still on it before the post showed up one 
day.  Truly sad.  Despite the occasional aggravation, I'd rather have a 
list where people show up, even if they are aggravating, they make me THINK.

Although, I admit, I've had my fill of some of the personal name calling 
towards listmembers.

>Longtime thoughtful and sincere posters have left, such as Joe
>H. and Bill Bird, leaving this list with still fewer
>writers of quality.  What are posts of quality?
>That's a tough question.  I'll tell you what is
>not....anything by Dan Forant (Dan, as a side note,
>try writing more than 2 sentences per post; and
>furthermore try making what you write intelligent).

What, it's not possible to be relevant and concise?  As a well-known beagle 
said, "There's no sense doing a lot of barking if you really don't have 
anything to say."  I don't always agree with Dan, but at least he gets to 
the point, a talent you may notice I lack.  :>)))  As far as intelligence, 
he uses proper grammar and spelling.  Basketball, as much as we may like 
it, isn't rocket science.  Geometry, maybe, but not rocket science.

>In the absence of thoughtful posting (and in the
>malaise that is this season) others have filled the
>void miserably.  Posts by Eggy, though well-written,
>are sarcastic and pure mental masturbation (as if this
>list is some substitute for a creative writing class).

So your definition is now expanded and clarified.  To be a "thoughtful" 
post, it must be long and serious.  What's wrong with whimsy?  Lewis 
Carroll made a career out of whimsy, as did T.S. Elliot.  Incidentally, to 
qualify as "mental masturbation" Eggy would have to NOT post what she 
writes.  The phrase you're looking for is "indecent eggsposure".  (Sorry, I 
just couldn't resist that one).

I have a weird sense of humor.  Not necessarily, good, just weird.  I don't 
mind if someone tries to be creative in the way they express 
themselves.  We are all individuals, and we have our own way of 
thinking.  How nice that Eggy doesn't feel the need to fit in a mold while 
joining a group.  She's not hurting anyone, and she's having fun.  What 
more do you want?  I appreciate silly as much as serious, and believe 
there's room for both.

>  Only Way has been consistent (that is, consistent to
>what he normally offers); consistent in occasionally
>offering tidbits of information and of offering
>semi-intelligent opinions (and Way, thanks for the
>postings from other places and locales, it is an
>important contribution to the list).  In short, as
>disappointing as this season has been, this list
>itself has been more so.

Doesn't say much that the only poster whose contributions you like you 
refer to as semi-intelligent.  "Thanks, Way--you almost have a brain that 
works."  Remind me not to have you run my PR if I ever become famous.  :>))

And if the list is disappointing, then lead by example.  Post what you 
think is a well-thought-out, positive contribution to the list and see what 
happens.  In other words, if you don't like the current discussions, start 
one yourself--as you have here.  Let's see where it goes.  But perhaps try 
it with less comments about the list and more about the Celtics.

>But enough about how poor this list has become, let's
>talk of the team.  I love the Celtics.  I've watched
>every game (except the Minnesota games, which were
>blacked out in my area) and thus have a reasonable
>ability to comment on their play.  Let's break it down
>by player.
>
>Paul Pierce--best player on the team and the only
>player actually raising his play as the season ends
>(the last five games or so rival what Paul did last
>year for a majority of the year).  This year has been
>a monumental struggle for Paul.  Starting probably
>last year during the Nets' series, Paul just hasn't
>had the breaks.  The breaks from officials, from the
>rim, from USA basketball, from anyone.  In short, his
>rep has taken a killing.  Furthermore he has been
>injured.  The teeth to the back to the knee to almost
>everything.  This is not surprising given the amount
>of punishment that he recieves on a nightly basis.
>This is not to mention that of every superstar in the
>NBA (and I would put Paul in that category) Paul gets
>the least amount of superstar calls, not to mention
>any other call that most any other player would get.
>Some will retort that he leads the league in free
>throw makes and attempts and that, as such, there is
>no great disparity.  That argument is shit.  Watch the
>games.  See how many times Paul drives and is, as
>Tommy likes to put it, knocked off the shot.  It
>happens continually in the fourth quarter.  Meanwhile
>players like Jordan and Iverson get the calls.  Apart
>from any official misconduct, Paul has also been
>leading to his own demise.  Rarely is he loose and
>smiling.  Sometimes, I must admit, he just gives
>up---not because he is a quitter, but because, in my
>opinion, he just becomes so frustrated that he has to
>shut it down.  Nonetheless, I suspect he'll have a
>fine playoff run; his shot is finally looking
>mechanically correct and he appears to be as healthy
>as he has been all season.  I'm expecting a Paul
>Pierce explosion sometime during the Playoffs.

I agree with the brunt of your analysis of Pierce.  In addition, I agree 
with Heinsohn that perhaps playing in the World Championships might have 
been a mistake after the tough playoff run last season.  Part of me hopes 
he will be recognized with an Olympic berth, but the rest of me thinks he 
needs the rest.

>Antoine Walker--the most misunderstood player in the
>world.  People think they know what he can do and what
>is happening in his head and how he should play and
>who he is...  You guys don't know shit.

Way to win friends and influence opinion.

>What makes
>Antione a special player is his ability to rebound
>(Tommy is not having a senior moment when he says that
>Antione is best offensive rebounder in Celtics'
>history).  Beyond that, his skill set is merely above
>average.  The Celtics need to maximize Toine's
>ability.  He needs to get into the post.  He needs to
>be in position to rebound.  And the fact that he
>isn't, isn't some indictment on his character; it is a
>statement to coaching and management.  They must think
>that he can't fight down low (or that he wouldn't be
>successful).  And that is a glaring misrepresentation
>of the situation.  Toine is a banger.

Toine is a stubborn soul.  He has his own view of what he does well, and 
sometimes that conflicts with the view of other, more experienced 
people.  He thinks he can beat everyone to the basket and thinks nothing of 
driving the ball to the teeth of the defense.  When he passes out, often 
the result is a missed shot or a turnover.  That tends to lead to his 
taking the ball in.  The lack of really effective rebounding (as in really 
tall Center), means that he's going to be outside more.  Add to that the 
fact that the refs never seem to give him a break--not a superstar break, 
just a been in the League a few seasons break--and no wonder he likes it 
when the Coach tells him to take the three.

>Tony Battie--the most important player on the team.
>Battie needs to get healthy.   When he is healthy, he
>is beyond serviceable; he becomes a force and, in my
>opinion, the best defensive player the Celtic's
>have....  That said, he needs to be used in better
>manner than he is currently (but I'll get to that at
>the end).

If he had some rebounding help--like Walker driving in from the other 
side--the C's would get a lot of layups from Battie.

>Eric Williams--no left eye vision, huh?  The sad part
>about that is that I wasn't surprised to hear it.
>Williams has been described as the best defensive
>player on the Celtics.  Hardly.  That is not to say
>that Eric isn't important.  He can score on the box.
>But we hardly go to him.  He can hit the three
>pointer, though we wouldn't ever draw up a play for
>him.  Basically, he is a garbage player, picking up
>baskets where available.  And his defense...well, he
>is great as a system guy.  He is usually in the right
>place at the right time.  But as a one-on-one
>defender?  Nope, he can't do it anymore.  I'm tired of
>seeing Stackhouse, Jordan, Iverson, and anyone else
>drive around him.  It happens so much, that he has
>"perfected" the slap around move to poke to ball loose
>(after he is beaten, that is).  That is not a good
>thing.

At least he's close enough to try a poke.  My problem with Williams is it's 
always an adventure when he goes to the free throw line.

>Tony Delk--Tony is a good guy.  But as a point guard
>and a starter, he has left many parts lacking.  Early
>in the season, when he was averaging double figures,
>it seemed that O'Brien's wet-dream of an offense was
>working; Delk could just sit around and shoot.  Aye,
>but that only works when Delk is making his shot.
>However, get him a little injured and he can't make a
>thing (he said as much in the papers earlier this
>week).  He is simply one of those player who, when he
>is making his shot is great, but when he isn't, is a
>liability.  These kinds of players should never be
>courted; get a team full of them and you have trouble
>(and/or this year's Celtics team)

Delk is what he is.  He's an offensive option who plays mediocre 
defense.  On most teams, he'd be there to shoot the ball when he was 
open.  Weird to say, but he'd have fit in with Dallas before they announced 
their plan to work on defense.

>Mark Blount--Wow, he has been good...good for Mark
>Blount.  Finally, he is somewhat able to control his
>body to make it do good.  He rebounds and blocks
>shots, he is strong, occasionally he'll get some
>points.  In short, the perfect back up center.

But again, he'd be more effective if the C's did more team rebounding.  And 
against some of the true Centers, he has no chance.  No slight on Blount, 
they're BIGGER than he is--by a good margin.

>Walter--Up and down year for Walt.  That is not to say
>it hasn't been Walt's best year ever.  It has.  What
>is distressing is that just like Walker, Walter is
>being misused.  He should be back up center and
>nothing else.  But I'll get to that later as well.

I platonically appreciate Waltah.  I don't think he's MISused so much as 
OVERused in situations where it just doesn't work.  Too short a bench, really.

>Grant Long--would somebody please tell me why this guy
>ever got so many minutes this year?  Plain and simple,
>he sucks.  Other than playing the five minutes that
>Antione sits out, he should never play (and I don't
>even think he should be playing those minutes, Walter,
>Williams, Blount, or Battie would all be better).  He
>rebounds alright and he'll make defensive plays
>(offensive fouls, steals, etc...), but on offense he
>sucks.  And on offense, this teams sucks.  So it is
>not a good combo.  Plus he is slow.  The less of
>Grant, the better; although I bet that he makes a
>couple of important plays down the stretch and in the
>playoffs.  The only thing that makes him somewhat
>valuable is that he is a veteran and can sometimes use
>that to sucker other players into something stupid.

Grant is there because our bench was so short that Obie was getting 
lonely.  We needed more bodies, period.  Between injuries, illnesses and 
whatever is with Baker, we've been hard put to practice properly or give 
anyone a decent rest during games.  Basically the same reason we got Bill 
Walton--to let Parish sit on the bench for a few minutes and catch his 
breath.  We got lucky that Walton had his beast season since 1977.

>Kedrick Brown--his non-role on this team will spell
>its ultimate doom.  Would somebody free Kedrick Brown?
>  What does ***** (Kedrick)have to do to get some PT up in
>this motherfucker?

Perhaps you meant it as a joke, but that's offensive.  Really 
offensive.  I'm not into the whole PC thing, but there's some words and 
phrases you just don't casually throw around, and I personally think that's 
one of them.  You were saying about "thoughtful" posts??

>The reasons to play Brown are
>numerous; he's a great individual defender (Pierce has
>said it, Walker too; O'Brien admitted it last week and
>then immediately quit giving him playing time--classic
>Obie), he rebounds (the single greatest weakness on
>this team) and he runs.  Furthermore, give the guy a
>chance on offense.  Try running a play for the guy.
>The amount of times I've seen Kedrick being
>"froze-out" is ridiculous.  Even in garbage time, the
>guy doesn't get the ball.  This is the fault of both
>the players and the coaching staff.  Furthermore,
>Kedrick is exciting and, as Ainge pointed out last
>night, the fans need to see that so they can find a
>reason to cheer (it certainly won't come from how the
>Celtics play offense).

Kedrick is still--due to injury--essentially a rookie and needs to be 
brought along slowly.  I also like his high-energy play.  But the guy keeps 
getting hurt at the worst possible times.  I think it's a good idea to look 
for him next season, after he's had time to completely recover and get into 
NBA shape.  When that happens, I think he'll be on the court a LOT.

>J.R. Bremer--in the beginning, J.R. sucked.  Then he
>started getting playing time, started to get confident
>and then started to hit his shot.  And then, he kept
>shooting so much and became the left-handed version of
>Antione--all three pointers, all the time...  And so,
>once again, we have a Delk situation---if he's not
>hitting his shot, he sucks.  Both are point guards are
>like that---and that is bad.

No, I think Bremer just hit a wall.  He did well coming off the bench, and 
I think he might actually work better there.  He has potential to become a 
sixth Man, if it's handled right.

>Ok, enough with the player profiles.  This is what the
>Celtics need to do to go far in the playoffs.
>
>Number one--start Blount.  Blount has been playing
>good and he plays better when he starts.  But this
>move is more predicated on two other factors; Walter
>and Battie.  For Battie, this season is almost lost.
>He is very close to just finally breaking (all these
>nagging injuries he's been receiving lately--the
>ankle, the hand--are just symptoms of the bad knee--he
>is overcompensating and it has been injuring him).  To
>best use Battie, I would use him in high energy 4
>minute intervals, twice in the first half and twice in
>the second.  Make Battie a sort of secret weapon;
>bring him in to start runs and improve the defense in
>short spurts.  This conserves Battie and maximizes his
>contributions.  Plus, if this plan is carried out, he
>is always fresh and available down the stretch of the
>game--where we need him.  Furthermore, we have Walter.
>  Hasn't everyone noticed that his best games are when
>he plays center for the majority of the game?  The
>reason for this is, just like Rodney last year, Walt,
>by playing the center spot. is able to get his 3 point
>shot whenever he wants it.  This is huge.  It is very
>relevant to the confindence factor that someone know
>they can always get their shot when they want it.  It
>takes off a lot of pressure.  Plus, with the guarantee
>of open three pointers, our offense immediately gets
>better since we, like last night, usually go thru a
>couple of stretches where we can't even get open
>shots.  This needs to stop.

I'd be willing to start Bount over the next few games for two reasons--one, 
give Battie a rest, and two, see if Blount can handle the job.  If he 
can't, we don't give away a playoff game.

>Number Two--Free Kedrick.  We've already went over
>this.  Kedrick needs to play and he needs to play
>alot.  Start Kedrick, play him thirty and watch how
>much more fresh and effective both Delk and Williams
>become.

Nope, I wouldn't start him, but I would get him first off the bench and try 
feeding him the ball against say, Philly, just to see what he could do inside.

>Number Three--for Christ's Sake, substitute like you
>mean it.  Pierce is playing too much and Walker is
>about to collapse.

Agreed.  But we have yet to see the rest of the team step up when Pierce 
and Walker aren't on the court.  They positively fall apart without at 
least one of them in here.  The threat of Pierce and/or Walker is what 
frees up the other C's on offense--and they have yet to consistently produce.

>   Use combo's of Kedrick, Williams,
>McCarty, Blount, and Bremer to rest these two....how
>about bringing back some sort of press, just to mix it
>up?

May Rick Pitino be your houseguest for two years while subjecting you to 
repeated showings of Celtics games he coached.  Bleah!!  Shame on you for 
suggesting the press.  I shudder to think of Allen Iverson salivating at 
the thought of a Celtics press.

>   Just to fuck with the other team...how many times
>has a change in defensive scheme just fucked up our
>offensive flow?  Give them their own medicine.  That
>is one of the faults of our defense.  It's always the
>same.  Not only does that help the mentality of the
>other team (they know that if they break the defense,
>they don't have to worry about adjustments), it hurts
>the mentality of the Celtics (if the defense is
>getting beat--and sometimes it is, no matter the
>defensive effort--they know their our no other
>alternatives--and that is bad).  We need some
>motherfucking innovation.

Maybe we should leave their mothers out of it...as to the rest, the defense 
would work with one more ingredient--Bill Russell.  Or Robert Parish, Dave 
Cowens, etc.  We need someone to fill up the middle and REBOUND.  The C's 
have a lot of guys playing Center against future hall of famers.  Of course 
they look--and are--ineffectual.  It'll take time to get what we need in 
the middle, and in the meantime, the C's need to stop trying to steal the 
ball and front the big man; and cover the passers and go in for rebounds.

>This of course all comes back to the coach.  Like
>everyone else on this list, I too can see his
>shortcomings.  He just doesn't seem so bright.  He
>found a couple things that work and instead of looking
>for more, he seems intent of using those couple things
>forever.  This is not a sign of a good coach.
>Adaptability is...and O'Brien hasn't shown it.  Even
>Pitino would have found a way to use Baker and
>Kedrick....O'Brien hasn't or doesn't know how.  This
>is bad.

No, the offensive scheme isn't great.  But it was, realistically, the only 
way the C's had a chance to post a winning record with the players they 
have.  You can't adapt when you don't have the talent on court TO 
adapt.  Playing more traditional ball would have put the C's in the lottery 
the last two years, and I guarantee you, BOTH Pierce and Walker would have 
left the team.  Then where are the Celtics?  Nowhere.  By the way, have you 
noticed how several coaches have been quietly increasing their reliance on 
the three after watching the C's?  Hubie Brown used to excoriate the 
Celtics for shooting outside the arc.  Now, his Grizzlies rely on it a LOT.

>   As for Wallace.  Yeah, lets kill that guy
>(not literally of course).  The Baker trade was bad
>from the beginning.  The drafting strategy is worse.
>Both should be fired (though I'm not hoping for a
>short playoff run like some of you; this is my team
>and I want them to win every game, no matter the
>ineptness of certain players, coaches or members of
>management).

There, we are in total agreement.  As the CBW states, we are one step 
closer to Banner #17.  and I believe that.  Not in the nebulous future, 
THIS YEAR.  That's what I meant at the beginning--we're all here because 
the one thing we have in common, despite all the myriad differences, is 
that we support the Boston Celtics.

>One final note;  since the draft is coming and it soon
>may become the only thing to look forward to
>(basketball-wise), I thought I'd mention a few
>prospects.

I don't really follow the college players, so I rarely comment on possible 
draft choices.  Except for LeBron James, or, as I call him, Immature 
Lad.  This kid may be hell on wheels in High School, but he has shown 
consistently poor judgement, and I think the NBA will be a real wake-up 
call for him.

>That's it.  This was long.

Maybe sometime I'll tell you about the story I wrote that started as a one 
issue comic and ended up a six issue miniseries.  THAT was long.  :>)))

>I even appreciate more the
>long posts the rest of you write.

I don't often write long posts because It means sitting up for long periods 
of time.  it happens I HAD to be up today, so I gave up editing myself.  :>)))


Snoopy the Celtics Beagle
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