Re: Fw: [Celtics' Stuff from hero to goat

["Cecil" <cecil@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

What's wrong with asking him to talk basketball?  What I resent are the
personal barbs thrown at list members like Tammo and Bird and Mike K. and
Mike G among others.  There's no need of it and we have seen it before.  He
claims to only talk Celtics.  That's not true.  He mentioned that Team USA
was comprised of all black players.  That's not true.  He mentioned that
Bird, who most of us know that it's his last name, was using a name by a
former Boston legend and called him Larry Joe and Mother, and then refers to
another list member as someone of another gender.  There is no need for that
kind of lack of courtesy.  Courtesy is the issue, not censorship.  He has no
reason to write such disrespecful things except that it appears he thrives
on that sort of thing based from comments of those who have had previous
dealing with him.

I am sure that Lance will not care at all about how I, Dorine, or even you
feel about it.  He will do what he wants without worry.  That is his right.
But I do not have to like it.  I asked him, honestly, why he felt the need
to do it and his reply was that he doesn't think I speak for this list,
which I do not pretend to do.  I don't think that answered my question but
then Lance never replied to my post about the fact that the team is not
entirely black either.  He just let it go and moved on to his next target.

It is because of behavior like that, that longtime contributors have left.
Bill Cooper immediately comes to mind.

Now, regarding Paul as a positive presence on the Celtics....I believe he
wore down last season from playing far more minutes than he ever did before.
That is one reason why I am proud of him for accepting the invitation to
play for Team USA.  I think it will help his endurance for the regular
season....and to me, that is what's important.

Cecil (As Mike K. always say...just my thoughts...YMMV)



----- Original Message -----
From: Kim Malo <kimmalo@mindspring.com>
To: <celtics@igtc.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Celtics' Stuff from hero to goat


> At 10:21 AM 9/8/02 -0400, Dorine Pratt wrote:
> >Thank you, Cecil!  My feelings, exactly!
> >Dorine
>
> Dorine, we usually agree but I have to admit that I don't this time. I'm
not a big fan of censorship or telling others what they can or can't say
based upon personal preferences rather than some larger issue, which is what
telling him to just talk basketball comes down to. He IS talking basketball
mostly. As much as a lot of other discussion on the list. Now suggesting he
be accurate about the facts or not put words in others' mouths, THAT's
another issue...
>
> IMO the problem with Lance isn't his anti-Pierce rants per se. Most go far
enough over the top to carry their own warning flag that there's a loon on
board. And we've put up with assorted rants by others. The problem is his
overly aggressive insistence that **anyone** who doesn't totally agree with
his view of PP is nothing but a PP worshipper, paired with the irrational
seeming wildness of some of his claims about the evil that Paul does (yup,
none of those USA basketball players ever had a selfish thought in their
lives until they met Paul, it's all his fault). No middle ground is possible
according to him. Anything anyone else says is taken as evidence that he's
right about their bias, just as anything Paul says or does (or doesn't say
or do) can be twisted to make it look evil. This is supposed to be a
discussion list, but that sort of attitude rapidly stifles discuss or
focuses it on personalities. THAT's a problem. *shrug* Lance's misfortune in
preventing what could ha!
> ve bee
> n some interesting discussion.
>
> BTW I'm also not so sure you and Cecil are right that most people on the
list look on Paul as an unqualified good thing. My guess would be that a lot
are with me in the middle, seeing both virtues and faults in Paul's play and
actions. Sorta like Walker or the 3 point shot itself. God I hate that shot.
>
> Kim
>
> Cecil wrote:
> >Gee, I don't know.  I'd say that the general feeling on this list B.L.
> >(before Lance) was that Pierce was good for the Celtics.  Maybe now
though,
> >you have convinced some that, in reality, PP doesn't give a hoot about
> >winning a damn thing.  That perhaps he is a statistic-driven.  Someone
who
> >refuses to play defense and hogs the ball without ever getting an assist.
A
> >player who will not grab rebounds or help out on defense.  He could be a
> >real monster who stomps on puppies and steals his colleagues' lunchmoney
> >also.
> >
> >I don't think many here believe that...and though your effort is valiant,
> >you are not going to enlighten folks in the manner it appears you are
> >trying.  A player doesn't come back from a life-threatening injury so he
can
> >yell at his teammates.  The progress this guy has made during his first
few
> >years in the league has been outstanding.  Tmac, by comparison, barely
got
> >off the bench during his first season and played a little more during the
> >next.  Everyone knew he had spectacular skills, but it takes time to
mature
> >to a level which is acceptable to the many knowledgeable Celtics fans.
Paul
> >has not finished maturing yet but then neither have some of the members
of
> >this list who resort to namecalling and cute little references to
people's
> >names, etc.
> >
> >The fact that Paul Moriarty is allowing you to continue in this vein may
be
> >temporary, and I have been told that you have inundated other lists with
> >your "insight".  But others in this house have solid basketball pedigrees
> >and offer their views without causing such foolishness.  Is that your
> >intent?  To create hard feelings with individual members?  You came in
here
> >taking shots at Tammo.  Called her a "he".  For what purpose?  Why?
> >
> >If you are going to stay here, please just talk basketball.
> >
> >Cecil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Lance Jacobson <lancejacob@attbi.com>
> >To: <celtics@igtc.com>; Kim Malo <kimmalo@mindspring.com>
> >Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 9:06 PM
> >Subject: Re: Fw: [Celtics' Stuff from hero to goat
> >
> >
> >> Y'know, you might try to accept that people can disagree with you about
> >Paul
> >> without being a "Paul's Our Guy" worshipper instead. It would save a
lot
> >of
> >> pointless arguments.>>Kim
> >>
> >> Disagree?  Jeez, I'd never noticed.
> >>
> >> The writer branded Pierce as an awful participant in the games, on the
> >team
> >> and on the bench.  Nobody else got so badly panned.
> >>
> >> No one says you're worshipping PP.  I'm saying that it's been pointed
out
> >that
> >> Pierce is BAD for a team.  Bad for unity, bad for team play, bad for
> >spirit,
> >> bad for performance.  How many on this board would agree with that?
> >>
> >> It's easy to state that you disagree, but it would help if you gave
> >evidence
> >> as to why.  I've tried to understand Bird's loyalty in the face of such
a
> >> lousy week-long performance culminating in two huge losses (the bad
blood
> >> didn't start on Wednesday) but there's no real argument.  Isn't a
> >discussion
> >> board there for the purpose to express and debate points of view?