Re: The Boston Celtics Mailing List Digest V9 #192

[Kim Malo <kimmalo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

At 10:55 PM 6/29/02 -0400, GuyClinch@AOL.com wrote:
> Eh well..
> I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Sure, that's fine.

> You claim that Walker is a far superior ball handler:
>
> Fact:
> He played about half as many minutes as Walker had about half as many
> turnovers.
Fact: Rodney HANDLED the ball a much smaller % of the time he played and 
had FAR fewer opportunities for turnovers. Nor did I see anyone going out 
of their way to change that in appreciation of how much better or 
equivalent Rodney was. This is part of what I hate about arguing from 
stats, like the people on the flip side who for the past few years went on 
and on about how many points Walker would score ignoring how many shots he 
took to do it/missed better opportunities for others, etc were involved.


> I don't know why people think Walker is such a fabulous ball-handler...
> more often then not you get him "running" a break he will screw it up. Both
> Pierce
> and Rodney show alot more come sense in that reguard.
You're kidding I hope. Rodney never ran a break except for a couple of his 
own coasts to coasts (hint: NOT pretty) , so you can hardly seriously use 
him as an example here. Mind you, I've no real problem that that's not his 
skill set because it's not what we got him for, but still, doesn't work as 
a counter example. Paul is really bad about not dishing off enough/looking 
for others enough and drove me crazy losing the ball on the dribble, far 
too often for his overall style and level of play. Even Paul admits to the 
first and I suspect would admit to the second - you could see him get mad 
at himself at times. The second I figure may be concentration lapses or 
fatigue rather than a skill issue, but it really drove me crazy at the 
games. If you don't go, maybe it doesn't come out as clearly on TV. And 
even with Paul, Walker handles the ball more per se and in more turnover 
situations.

Anyway, I should also point out that Walker has significantly improved over 
last year, both positively and negatively -in cutting down on turnovers and 
what he does when he has the ball (this one is admittedly more subjective). 
The year before I probably would have agreed with you that his passing and 
ball handling are vastly overrated. He also improved more than Paul in that 
aspect - Walker went from 300 the year before to 251, an improvement of 
about 16%. Paul went from 262 to 241, only an 8% improvement. I'm pretty 
sure Paul will improve on that, but I think it runs clearly in Walker's 
favor, especially with how much more of the handling he does.

The defensive stuff I'm going to snip because it's pretty clearly 
subjective agree to disagree stuff. May even be a matter of different 
things being important to us on defense in evaluating 'better'.


> > he is strong and is not afraid to use it. Journeyman? That's a tougher
> > call. In a different time, yeah without question. In today's NBA?
> > Borderline. I like Rodney, within his limitations, but stud basketball
> > player? Maybe compared with someone like Blount...
>
> Eh...thats why I compared him to Walker..who is another "Tweener."
But that's like saying you'll compare him to Delk who is another sort of 
tweener - shooting guard in a point guard body. Far too limited a basis of 
comparison as it ignores the fact that Walker and Rodney have different 
games. Blount at least is supposed to be filling a similar role.


> Of course Rodney with his superior strength can play the pivot..a bit...
> and yet he is quick enough to play the small forward some.
Quick? Rodney? That's actually my main problem with re-signing him. I just 
spent too many times watching him stand there and react about 2 minutes 
after the ball or his man had gone by him. Nor have I seen him going out of 
his way to stay on the pivot that much, although I agree that with his size 
and strength I wish he would.


> Walker on the other hand is also a bit too slow to play small forward but too
> short and weak to play the power forward. They are both "tweeners"
Yup, no argument that they are both tweeners, although I disagree with the 
subjective stuff after that as building Rodney up too much and putting 
Walker down too far. It's also a matter of how you look at it. Flip what 
you say about Walker around and he's too quick for the power forwards, too 
strong for the small forwards. *shrug*  Perception is reality.


> I hate to be the unfortunate bringing of bad news..but here goes.
Aside from that clearly being untrue <g>, why would you think you are? Ah, 
you may be leaping to another assumption - I'm not a Walker worshipper and 
was one of his biggest critics until he finally made major steps into 
maturity this past year.


> Walker is not that good. He isn't that special a player. He is a kinda
> versatile all around stud player who does alot of things well but nothing
> great. And yes Rodney
> Rodgers isn't that far off.
We apparently have different definitions of stud player if you think Rodney 
is not that far off. And maybe you don't realize that the versatility at 
his size that you admit he has is a big part of exactly what **does** make 
Walker a special player.


> Rodney rebounds per minute nearly as well, shoots a better percentage and
> turns the ball over less. Walker doesn't shoot as well, and makes more
> turnovers but can dribble a bit fancier and is younger. He also passes better
> and is more of a leader.
This is actually getting funny, as the more you say the more you begin to 
prove my point, now that you're staring to grant Walker a few positives. Ah 
well, different views. That being said, rebounding and shooting % I'll 
grant you. Rebounding is one of the big things Rodney's supposed to be 
doing and while I think his shot selection has significantly improved, 
there's no arguing that Walker's % is lower than one might wish (with some 
reasons to justify some of that, like how often he gets the ball with the 
clock running out and no choice - but it still is a valid problem, no 
argument, and likely will always be). While I've pointed out the problem 
with your harping on turnovers. Although even so, Rodney's PG average is 
slightly more than half of Walker's and he played about half the minutes. 
So, that would indicate that with equivalent minutes and a lot less ball 
handling, Rodney would turn over the ball slightly more. Not good.


> And ya..a guy as strong and quick as Rodney who can flat out nail threes in
> stud..
> on any team in the NBA.
Like I said, different definitions.

Kim