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Re: The Boston Celtics Mailing List Digest V6 #253



Interesting questions about keeping statistics. Let me offer my interpretation of how to score these.

1) When a defender (who makes most of the effort) hits (without the hit being a "controlled" pass) the ball off the hands of an opponent and the ball ends up in the hands of another defender (who doesn't really do much), who is credited with the steal?  In the case of similar rebounds  nobody does, as they are credited as "team rebounds", but I haven't seen the term "team steal".

I believe that whomever controls the ball gets credit for the steal. There is no steal until the defense actually takes controls the ball (the team with the ball is considered to have team control until the defense takes control, so that a loose ball is considered to be in control of the offense. This means that 3-second and 10-second "counts" are still in effect even though the ball may be rolling around the floor.) This notion is similar in rebounding so that whomever actually controls the rebound gets credit even if a teammate tapped it and batted it and kept it alive for a small guard to chase it down in the corner.
 

2) When a player is fouled in the act of rebounding, is he credited with  the rebound?  Does this depend on whether he has grabbed the ball before  the fouls is committed?  What about when he is fouled just as he is grabbing the ball, which is knocked loose by the foul?

There is no personal rebound unless a player actually gains control of the ball. So it depends on when the foul was committed. If, as you say, he was getting the rebound when fouled, then yes, he gets credit. If he was fouled away from the ball but trying to get the rebound, then I would have to say no and that the "rebound" is a team rebound. By the way, there must be a rebound for every missed shot.

3) When a player wins an offensive foul or forces a TO by himself, shouldn't he be credited with a steal?  Or, alternatively, shouldn't  forced TOs be an important separate stat that is relatively easily  measurable?  There may be more forced TOs than steals in a game.  This could resolve the conflict in (1) as well, as the first player could be credited with a forced TO and the second with a rebound :-)

I think you'd have too much disagreement over forced vs. unforced turnovers. Also, since forced turnovers are frequently the result of good team defense, it would be difficult to agree as to who forced the turnover (which one of the players double teaming the ball? which one of the players stepping into a passing lane? which one of the players denying a pass to his man?)

4) When a player puts up a shot, the ball hangs on the rim, and a teammate commits goal-tending (although the ball was clearly going in), is the shooter charged with a missed FG attempt?  Is goal-tending  charged as a TO to the offender, although the team did not have  possession?  If not, isn't it wrong to punish (statistically) the  shooter instead of the player who committed the goal-tending?

I don't believe the shooter is charged with a missed field goal attempt. I do believe the offender is charged with a turnover for commiting a violation.

5) When a player shoots a FT and a teammate commits a lane violation, so the (made) FT does not count, is the player charged with a missed FT?   Is the lane violator charged with a TO?  Does this depend on whether the ball had left the hands of the shooter (so there was no possession)?

I believe that since the shot is waived off, no attempt is recorded and turnover is charged to the teammate who committed the violation.

It's an interesting point that since there is no team possession on a shot, then how could there be a turnover? On the other hand, there is no team possession on an inbounds play so how could one turn the ball over when the other team isn't granted possession (technically speaking). I think the notion of turnover is broader than the technical rules definition of team control.

- tom