Re: My Generation/Who vs Zep/Pagey/Brainwashed

[mleaman@sccoast.net (Mark Leaman)]

>I thought you arguing about "first rock song" questions a couple weeks 
>ago, before I entered this argument.  Maybe I am talking with ghosts, I 
>just finished talking to Jimi Hendrix and sent him to Heaven level #5.  
>He feels so much better.  (I hope you know what I'm talking about, it has 
>to do with a certain radio show)  

Ian:

Actually, I haven't heard that radio show...radio not being that impressive
down here, except for Stern in the morning.
And I still am unshaken in my belief that MG was the first true Rock song.

>But isn't ragtime also of a classical european influence? I never 
>thought of ragtime as purely a black-oriented genre. It may have been 
>performed primarily by black artists, however these are artists who 
>received an education of music from other sources.  You also might 
>consider the fact that ragtime may have been the most published because 
>it was generally excepted by not only blacks but whites as well.  

It doesn't matter what Ragtime's influences are (not in this discussion,
anyway) or whether it was acceptable to whites, the point is that it was
Jazz and it was around at that time. No one said it had to be by blacks
only, either. We're talking about when Jazz was documented as opposed to the
Blues.

>> "By the beginning of the 20th Century, there were significant Blues singers
>> who were influencial in the Blues and most other forms."
>> The book: The Rock And Roll Story by Charles T. Brown, published 1983 by
>> Prentice-Hall.
>> What you are talking about as "Blues" in the 1800s was black folk music, not
>> the yet in the form we now call Blues (as I've pointed out to you before).
>> And that was what we were talking about here...the form.
>
>Well Mark, what am I supposed to say about this?  You almost helped me 
>out.  Just because the quote says "influential in the blues" doesn't mean 
>it's not blues music.  It would be understood that the blues music as we 
>now know would have to grow, just like jazz has grown, and especially 
>rock music.  What you're quoting is the same as Elvis' "That's Alright 
>Mama" was an influence on Nirvana.  Though Elvis was considered 
>"rockabilly", he is always considered in a rock oriented discussion. The 
>departure from the norm with those infamous Sun sessions is definately 
>something that could be called rock and roll.  

Yeah, Elvis was RnR. No argument there.
However, one can't say that because Jazz grew and changed that Ragtime
wasn't Jazz...it was/is. And yes, the phrase "influencial in the Blues"
implies that it is NOT Blues, but influencial.
Here's another quote for you from the same book:

"Classic Blues, the form which followed primitive Blues, was the accultured
Blues form. It was still not urban Blues in the commerical sense, but (Note:
pay attention to this part, Ian) it did to begin to solidify the style and
move toward a standard Blues form."

Now, since we know that the early forms of Blues didn't have "a standard
Blues style" (which is what I've been saying for some time), then it's NOT
the form we were talking about in regard to the Blues form of the early
`60s...the timeperiod we were talking about.

>But you were talking about "commercial" a few posts back.  I was trying 
>to identify (thanks to historical perspective) true origins.  

It was commercial according to the standard of the time, when radio was the
main source of music for the vast majority.

>Come on Mark, you're quoting an author and even he describes the second 
>demo in relation to the blues.  Personally I forgot all about that 
>segment in BIGO, I only seem to remember Keith's car accident in 1970 and 
>Roger knocking out Pete in '73 (gossip gossip gossip).  My source is a 
>collection of rock journalism I read at the library which included Pete's 
>rundown song by song of MBBAB in Rolling Stone 1972.  But anyway I never 
>doubted the MG was two demos, but it's true sources of influence I do.

I don't think that Marsh, just because he has details about The Who, is what
I'd consider a reliable source for the definition of Blues. He makes a few
similar musical mistakes in that book, and in Fortunate Son. Just as he
contridicts himself in the next sentence by saying it sounds like the "Heavy
Metal LAL version." 
Besides, that demo version I've heard and I KNOW what it doesn't sound like.
I have the RS review by Townshend as well, but know full well that Pete is
about as consistant as the weather.



                   Cheers                   ML

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."  L. Long