Re: The Who Vs The Rest

[mleaman@sccoast.net (Mark Leaman)]

>What your tripping perference happened to be doesn't make something 
>psychedelic. LZ III's folk songs are nothing like the celtic ala Fairport 
>Convention sound you hear on IV and Houses.  It's a totally different style. 
>III is wistful and light while IV and Houses have a colder english edge in 
>style (read Plant's rising input).  Now, compare Jim McCarty's Shining Where 
>the Sun Has Been and what Page was doing and you'll see what I meant in 
>contrasting style directions.

Ian:
Well, I must say that the psychedelic content of LZ III is pretty clear to
me. The "Immigrant's Song/Friends/Celebration Day" set, for instance. Hats
Off and Tangerine, too. Without going into a long discussion defining Acid
Rock, I think that the evidence is there to be seen.
BTW, I never listened to Fairport Convention in that state of mind. Oof!
TOMMY, now...
LZ III (my favorite LZ album, BTW) has few folk songs, really. It has been
unjustly called an "acoustic" album for years. The electric songs outweigh
the acoustic: IS, CD, SIBLY, OOTT, and Tangerine - electric. Gallows Pole,
TTW, and B-Y-AS are the solid, all acoustic songs. Friends I would say is
sitting on the fence...it's not a "folk" song, that's for sure! Nor Hats
Off, which is acoustic Blues. The way it was produced, I'm tempted to
include that one in the electric side...
But you will admit, I think, the relationships between Friends and Four
Sticks, Celebration Day and The Song Remains The Same, Tangerine and Over
The Hills And Far Away, SIBLY and I'm Gonna Crawl (OK, that was a cheap
one), Out On The Tiles and Custard Pie.

>Relax is excellent from that show and should've been how it sounded on Sell 
>Out, but again where is the influence on Zeppelin?  If anything Relax is a 
>Hendrix imitation with a flamboyant drummer.  Throw out the feedback and 
>Pete actually tries to attain that Hendrix style of guitar soloing.  

Pete had been doing that feedback-style lead long before Hendrix. Anyway
Anyhow Anywhere from `65!!! And I see Relax as a very Zeppelin-sounding
song, pre-Zeppelin (of course). Even the studio version. Another fine
example would be The Ox. Shades of Whole Lotta Love! And if you have the new
SELL OUT, listen to Top Gear or Hall Of The Mountain King.

>If you really want to point out where exactly the Who are clearly heard on 
>LZ II (because I want to be proven wrong)  show me.  An album that's laced 
>with guitar riffs, many lifted from blues musicians over an album of power 
>chords and strong rhythm doesn't not say WHO to me.  The ONLY clear 
>influence I can think of is their use of dynamics on Thank You.  

Songs that reflect The Who on Zep II: Whole Lotta Love (especially the end:
"Way down inside/Woman you need..."), the electric parts of What Is And What
Should Never Be ("And the wind won't blow...") & Bring It On Home, and
Heartbreaker (not the lead break, of course). The chorus and end of Ramble
On ("Now's the time/The time is now..."). I never said (nor implied) that it
was note for note...it's not. But there is a strong resemblance.
This is not an isolated event, either. The Lemon Song on the same album was
lifted almost intact from Killing Floor without crediting Chester Burnett
(better known as Howling Wolf), the original writer.

>That's not true, Fresh Cream is really Mayall without his participation.  
>Now of course Cream evolved into something different which is their stamp, 
>but the very early Cream are hard to distinguish from Mayall's sound in 
>1966.  Listen to Spoonful and Bruce's vocal style is a mirror image of 
>Mayall.

Well, we were talking about songwriting, and Spoonful wasn't written by
Bruce. It's an old Willie Dixon song. Allow me to clarify: Bruce's
songwriting doesn't bear much if any Mayall influence.
Is this fair? Mayall is famous for the songs he didn't write. So even a
Mayall influence may be better described as a Blues influence. And how about
Alexis Korner? Wouldn't he figure in, if Mayall did? He was called the
"Godfather" of British Blues.

>>>Name them, there aren't many...Paul Weller is the only one who comes to 
>>>mind.  

>>Jimi Hendrix, if you must have one. That's too easy. It's my contention
>>that all songwriters were influenced by Townshend's breaking down the
limits >>of RnR with My Generation.

>Hendrix took more in SONGWRITING from Dylan and Lennon/Macca than Townshend. 

Lyrically, yes, but not musically. Come now...

>Ray Davies already landed on the moon with You Really Got Me, Townshend
just >took rock to mars.  Point being, PT didn't do it first.

YRGM is very Blues-oriented (in fact, it was originally written as a slow
Blues song). The singles Davies wrote were definitely pushing beyond Blues,
but not very far. Not until after My Gen, anyway. For an example, listen to
the way Davies plays YRGM on his latest solo tour (as he explains how he
wrote it). That's Blues. If you don't have access to a copy of those shows,
I have some and will be glad to make you a copy. But for now, think about it
at half the speed...shades of Delta Blues! You can't do that to MG.
On album, however, The Kinks were doing pretty much what most of their peers
(Stones, Yardbirds, Pretty Things, Beatles) were doing...the same old RnB,
Chuck Berry, and Blues. Over and over and over...until...
I give credit to RD for creating the form (chord-driven) of Punk, but the
structure (what I call "structure," anyway - bombastic, violent) and
attitude (in your face) came from The Who. For the first true Punk song
remains Anyway Anyhow Anywhere. YRGM, All Day And All Of The Night, etc,
were all love songs.
Again, YRGM was an exciting, vital song...but MG went far beyond it.

>You're right, the Talking Heads do have a definate pop influence, BUT the 
>overall tone of their music has a lot more to do with VU than probably any 
>other band, especially as you say on the first four albums.  

Perhaps, though I've never seen that cited anywhere. We're getting too far
off track with Talking Heads anyway...this began with VU. And I stand by my
statement that VU weren't influenced by The Who, nor the reverse. It was two
great minds moving in similar directions. Nor would I call Talking Heads a
Punk band. New Wave, more like. And the biggest influence for that was Bowie.


                 Cheers                     ML