Improv Wars

>Actually, let's really give credit where credit is due as to who started   
>the
>improvisational rock thing in live performances - they were called   
>"rave-ups"
>and the Yardbirds were the band that broke outside the mold before ANY   
>other
>band - British or American - did it. 

>Tell me, why does Page get so much crap for stealing blues riffs but no   
>one takes Clapton or Richards or Gary Moore or Peter Green or (insert   
>your favorite modern blues-based guitarist here) to the wall for it?   
> Page didn't do anything anybody else didn't do, and he and Plant were   
>never secretive about the fact that they were doing it in the beginning.   
> And I'll argue that that tendency diminished rapidly with each   
>successive album.  As for the Yardbirds, Page *was* a member of the   
>Yardbirds!  I'd hardly call it "stealing" if it comes from your own band.

I can answer those charges...
Page gets Hell because he won't admit to it. He has a big ego. So do a lot
of Rock stars (no need to mention Rod Stewart at this point). But that
leaves him open to such hostility. Thing about how Pete and Dave Davies
reacted to him.
As for stealing from his own band...Greg is right enough there. Page wasn't
in The Yardbirds when they began doing that. Of course, that leaves me a
great opening to state that The Who were definitely jamming in `64, when at
the Marquee Club. So if we're talking about WHERE it came from...

>If Zeppelin stole it from the Yardbirds, then Cream and a hundred other   
>bands are 'guilty' as well.  I prefer to look at it as a natural   
>evolution of performance rock.  Zep took it a step (or six) further.  In   
>one particular direction.  The Who took it a couple leaps further.  In   
>another direction.

I don't know how to take this one. I'd say that The Who had already taken
Rock farther than Zep ever would on MG (especially compared to the Blues
album Zep made first). Then there's TOMMY, WN, QUAD...oh boy...leaps and
bounds, I'd have to say. 
But then, you knew that's what I'd have to say...

>Show me a drummer from the same time period who didn't (Bill Bruford and   
>Charlie Watts excluded).

Too easy. Carl Palmer.

>Mark stated that there are plenty of "unofficial" releases that prove you   
>wrong, and I'll add that TSRTS was recorded on one night at the end of a   
>long tour.  Leeds was magical in that the performance and sound and   
>chemistry all coincided to produce the single greatest live recording   
>ever, but even Leeds had a song or two from another show.  I never said   
>that TSRTS was as good (or even close) to Leeds.  Just that Zeppelin live   
>was the definition of Improvisational Performance Rock for years.

See, that's where you go too far. Zep wasn't the definition of it. 30 minute
versions of Dazed And Confused means that you've gone too far. It's OK when
you're watching Page use the bow (merely OK), but listening to a tape (or
CD) of it makes it sound deadly boring. When you take it too far, you cannot
be the definition of something...you CAN be an extremist, though. Definition
assumes a middle ground.
Oh yeah...I'd forgotten about TALES FROM A TOPOGRAPHICAL OCEAN (or whatever
it was called). Hmmm...I guess there are a few extremists out there.
I saw Yes on that tour, BTW. There is nothing worse than sitting through an
entire concert featuring one two hours long overbearing boring meaningless
senseless song. That was it, too...the one song and "Thank you, good night."
Bastards. It wasn't even a good song...



                   Cheers                   ML

"I think you should keep on playing Rock as long as you have an axe to grind
and then if you haven't got an axe to grind you should go into cabaret."
                                                                 Pete Townshend