Re: Thought I'd seen it all...

["Billy T." <btylaska@onramp.net>]

FWIW, the VR6 was built for the tiny confines of the *A2* chassis.  I think it
saw its way into engine bays as early as 1988, in VW test vehicles.

b-

Khan Klatt wrote:

> At 10:36 PM -0500 2/22/2000, Jose  Gomez wrote:
> >Thought I'd seen it all...but today what do I see ... some dude drivin' a
> >Jetta GT with a huge VR4 banner on his front winshield. I had to laugh. I
> >guess you can't blame the guy for trying at least he's driving a VW.
>
> I guess I'm bored so I'm going to stretch this reply into several
> paragraphs, maybe it will spawn some discussions...
>
> No, don't give him that much credit. I don't know of any V shaped 4
> cylinder motors, not to mention any that VW ever put in their cars.
>
> The whole point of the VR6 is that by having a narrow angle V, you
> can produce a EXTREMELY compact 6 cylinder motor into the TINY bays
> of the A3 (and now A4) platform! It is even conceivable (although it
> would have to be a work of genius) to put a VR6 into a New Beetle.
>
> The whole point of a "VR4" is completely lost, because you could fit
> an inline 4 (as VWAG easily does to this day) into the engine bay of
> any VW or Audi platform.
>
> Only until the current A4 series has it even been considered that VW
> would put a V6 into the car (as opposed to the narrow angle V of the
> VR6). They still use the VR6 because it fits so easier than the Audi
> V6 engine.
>
> Also, VW built a concept car, the W12. This was essentially two VR6
> motors in the same chassis... again, they probably chose the VR6
> because it fit better into the concept car (i.e. it looked like W as
> opposed to \/\/) than two Audi V6 engines would.
>
> The ideal goal is to get as much power into as little space as
> possible using the least weight possible when designing a sports car.
> For some designers, 4, 6, even 8 cylinders are not enough, so they
> build V engines to save space. Or, some designers like flat (boxer)
> style engines, or inline engines-- either due to the additional power
> or torque they can get in different orientations (don't ask me why
> this happens, it apparently does without me knowing how or why ;).
>
> When you're dealing with six cylinders or more in these
> configurations, you have to build your engine bay to be large. Which
> means a rear mounted engine in some high end sportscars (and hence,
> traditionally rear wheel drive).
>
> This is the "I don't care how much space it takes, as long as I get a
> lot of power for the weight, I'm happy" approach.
>
> Our VR6 motors are the middle of the road. It's the "I need to fit a
> lot of power into a small space, and if the power is good, the weight
> isn't so much an issue". Die hard VR6 fans will say "there is no
> replacement for displacement" in opposition of the next approach...
>
> Then there is the 4-banger turbo approach. It's the "I want to reduce
> weight as much as possible, and save space, and squeeze out as much
> power as possible." This is where the VW/Audi 1.8T engine comes in,
> and although I haven't driven one, it apparently is a kick ass power
> plant.
>
> Of course, there is everything in between and further, from, as I
> mentioned earlier the W12 configuration of two VR6 engines melted
> together into one powerplant, (and probably even more, although I
> don't know of any sportscars that use > 12 cylinders)  and I don't
> know of any thing more gutless that VW puts into its cars than the
> 2.0 Liter Gas 4 banger (and some people would argue that the 1.9
> Liter Deisel TDI 4 banger is potentially the weakest engine that VW
> put into its cars in the past five years).
>
> So, VWAG, under the brands of VW and Audi, has the following range of
> motors, which I have (in my OWN subjective order) placed in order of
> power:
>
> [I'm ignoring the Bugatti line (W18 engine!) or Bentley, etc. which VWAG owns
>   I'm also only showing the most capable configuration of an engine]
>
> * W12 Concept car       12 Cylinder, W (dual VR6 configuration ???)
> * Audi 4.2L S8 V8 Audi engine (up to 5.4 sec. 0-60! -- approx. 355hp!)
> * Audi 2.6L S4 V6 Biturbo Audi engine (up to 5.7 sec. 0-60 -- approx. 260hp!)
> * VW 2.8L VR6 engine (up to 6.9 sec 0-60 -- approx. 174hp)
> * Audi 2.5L A4 V6 TDI Audi engine ( ??? -- approx. 148hp)
> * VW/Audi 1.8L A4 I4 Turbo ( ??? -- approx. 148 hp)
> * VW 2.0L I4 engine (well above 8 sec 0-60 -- approx 115hp)
> * VW 1.9L I4 TDI (well above 8 sec 0-60 -- approx 90hp)
> * VW 1.6L I4 (Europe only) (well above 9 sec 0-60 ??hp)
>
> The really cool thing is that as VW/Audi enthusaists, we have a WIDE
> variety of powerplants to choose from. From the humble and economic
> 1.9L TDI, to the 1.8L Turbo I4 (recently announced) in the Golf &
> Jetta (and for quite some time in the A4 & A6) to the ever popular
> VR6 (in the GTI and Jetta), to the Audi V6 that does such a nice job
> powering the Passat, A4, and S4 (among probably others), and of
> course, the top of the line 4.2L S8 V8 engine....
>
> (ignoring the multiple VR6 hybrids for the W12 and W18 concepts)
>
> Anyhow, just thought I'd discuss the VW/Audi engine components--
> there are probably some of you with more details and comments about
> this...
>
> -K
>
> Khan Klatt                                         khan@mediaaccess.com
>
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