RE: Berry/Walker

["Wright, Cecil" <Cecil.Wright@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

But there are so many other factors to consider when thinking about Odom beginning with substance abuse issues.  Is this guy gonna kick the habit?  And if not, what does that do with DAs pristine image?  I'm also concerned about his durability in comparison to Walker.  Odom has never played a full season.  If he is to be an impact player, doesn't he need to be on court?

I think he is a talented player.  Just not sure he would blossom right now given his level of maturity, which I don't think is very high.



Cecil  

-----Original Message-----
From: Berry, Mark S [mailto:berrym@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: July 03, 2003 3:36 PM
To: 'celtics@xxxxxxxx'
Subject: Re: Berry/Walker


Josh, I don't want to open the debate either, but I will say that I think
your undeniable facts about Antoine are only undeniable when discussing
Antoine at his best, which we see less and less of.

My comment about Odom takes into account Odom's age and the fact that he has
a true position (small forward). Plus, he's a perfect sidekick for a guy
like Pierce. He's a great creator and distributor and can score when he
needs to score. And he does it without needing 20-25 shots a game.

I happen to think the opinions held by most on this list would be vastly
different if Antoine played for a different team. We're blinded by the fact
that he's ours. If he played for someone else, we'd lump him in with
Sprewell, Rose, Eddie Jones, etc. - good, overpaid, aging players. We've
become so conditioned to the 8-for-23 games, the sub-par rebounding, the
lousy free throw shooting, the turnovers, etc., that we're numb to how bad
it is. Yes, he's a leader, in the sense that his teammates like him and look
to him for inspiration, but how about leading by example in offseason
conditioning? How about being coachable? We still haven't seen anyone be
able to coach Antoine without Antoine rebelling.

But we've been over this time and again. I know you blame Obie, but Obie is
just doing what he has to do to keep Antoine playing defense. That's the
tradeoff. And the team can't progress because of that arrangement. So I say
it's time to end the arrangement and send the team in a new direction. I
agree that Antoine has some value, I just don't think it's as great as you
do. We've heard names like Eddie Jones and Jalen Rose going to Minnesota for
Brandon, and I just don't think Antoine is that much different than those
types of players. He has a shorter contract, though, and, more
significantly, shorter than Vin Baker's. I wouldn't make any kind of salary
dump that doesn't involve Baker unless there's another move coming with the
mid-level exception or through sign-and-trade. It all ties together.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything new here. Below I've tried to
illustrate the differences in perspective on Antoine. You say these are
undeniable facts, and I deny many of them. Who's right? Depends on who you
ask.

Mark

You wrote (with my comments in parentheses):

-- he is very talent and plays and practices hard. (He plays hard at times
and in spurts; watch him run the floor offensively and defensively and see
how many times he takes a break on offense by never moving past the 3-point
line)
-- he is very durable (no argument)
-- he demands a double team (only when he posts up, which he does less and
less; no one has to double team him when he floats around the perimeter all
the time)
-- he creates his own shot (there's a difference between creating it and
making it)
-- he is one of the best and most willing passers
at 4 or 5 in the game. (best, maybe, but most willing? Sometimes)
-- he is capable of averaging ten rebounds a game
without having a career year. (his rebounding has declined each of the last
three seasons; I doubt he ever approaches 10 rebounds a game ever again)
-- he is still young (27) (but the minutes he has played and his failure to
keep his body in condition make him an old 27) 



Mark,

Without wishing to open the endless, horrible,
nightmarish quagmire that is the Antoine debate,
I wish to say that I think your analysis, while valid
and insightful, is somewhat skewed by your
under-rating of Antoine.  I dislike all the same things
about Antoine's game as you do, and realize how
little leadership and fire count when your star shoots
and rebounds poorly, never gets to the line, etc. etc.

But certain facts about Walker are undeniable, despite
his on-court and contractual shortcomings.

-- he is very talent and plays and practices hard.
-- he is very durable
-- he demands a double team
-- he creates his own shot
-- he is one of the best and most willing passers
at 4 or 5 in the game.
-- he is capable of averaging ten rebounds a game
without having a career year.
-- he is still young (27)

Add to this the fact that his contract is up in two years and
that many people blame Obie's indulgence for Walker's
style of play, and you have a very desireable player.

And the real reason for my post:  you can't go around saying
that Lamar Odom is better than Antoine.  Do you really hate
Walker that much?

Josh

p.s. for what it's worth, I believe that I probably overrate Walker.
But I want him to see him in a different offense before I lose
his rare fire and floor game.