RE: Re: [Celtic_Pride] Does...

["Wright, Cecil" <Cecil.Wright@JUSTICE.GC.CA>]

All I'll say is that Toine has good nights and poor nights...just like other
players in the league.  But to say he doesn't do the other things to help is
team win is wrong.  He plays hurt.  He has heart.  He rebounds well.  He
passes well.

Problem is that there is an extremely high standard on this list for him to
achieve.  That is one of the problems.  How many times have we read a post
concerning him which contained "like Bird"  for instance.  

He is not a Bird-like player any more than Battie is a Russell-like player.
Judging him based on what we have seen in the past will just lead to more
gray hair.

We know that his shot selection sucks some time.  But he averages far more
assists than most players his size in the league today.  His rebound per
game average is impressive considering all the perimeter shots he takes,
with the blessing of his coach.

You mention his lack of speed/hustle getting downcourt on the break.
Perhaps he needs to pace himself with the amount of minutes he's logging so
far.

But the fact is he is here to stay.  You can complain throughout the
duration of his career though if you like.  But isn't it easier to accept
that he has strengths and weaknesses like everyone else, and just support
the team?

They are doing well.  Find some positives.  I know you want to Mark and I
know you are a staunch supporter of the team.  There's no harm in showing
your support.

Cecil Wright, Nova Scotia Community Coordinator
Community Mobilization Program
Department of Justice Canada
Duke Tower - Suite 1400
5251 Duke Street
Halifax, NS  B3J 1P3
Tel: (902) 426-5950
Fax: (902) 426-8532
Email: cecil.wright@justice.gc.ca 
Web: www.crime-prevention.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Berry, Mark S [mailto:berrym@BATTELLE.ORG]
Sent: February 20, 2002 12:25 PM
To: Celtic igtc list (E-mail)
Subject: FW: Re: [Celtic_Pride] Does...


Paul, you're right. Without Antoine, the team is terrible. Without Pierce,
the team is terrible. For five years, with Antoine, the team was terrible.
For three years, with Pierce the team was terrible. Saying Antoine is the
only reason this team is over .500 isn't fair. Pierce has had something to
do with it. Kenny isn't great, but he has been incredibly important this
season. Dick Harter has had a hell of a lot to do with it. The new rules,
too.

I'm not saying, and have never said, that simply subtracting Antoine from
this team makes them better. That's absurd. Of course he's important. But
I'll tell you this... there are plenty of nights when I watch this team and
am convinced that they'd be better off with Antoine on the bench. You watch
him at his best and you think "how could we replace him?", but you watch him
at his worst-and there are plenty of chances to do that-and you think "how
can we win with this guy?" I had a lot of those thoughts in the Seattle and
Golden State games. 

His game completely lacks discipline. When things are going well, great, but
when things aren't, he completely lacks the ability to recognize that and
adjust. Things that you hear repeated over and over from the first time you
watch a basketball game are lost on him. Things like, if your shot isn't
falling, try to get a layup or to the line to get you going. Or, if you're
playing a bigger guy, use your speed to beat him down the floor (have you
ever seen Antoine do that? He cherry picks, when he never crosses
half-court, but have you ever seen him outrun his man in transition?). Use a
pump fake against a shot-blocker. Not Antoine... It's his way or, well...
his way.

You support him absolutely. "His first five seasons were M.L./Pitino's
fault, he shoots so much and so poorly because Obie wants him to, he doesn't
pass more because everyone else on the team sucks." I don't buy it. Coaches
come and go, but Antoine remains the same. You think he gets too much blame
when he plays poorly, I think he gets too much credit when he plays well.
Who's right? Probably neither of us. I'm probably too hard on him, and
you're probably too soft on him.

He was great last night. And terrible against Golden State. He's capable of
great games, like a lot of guys. He also puts together more terrible games
than any "star" player in the league. Bob McChesney made a great post about
this a couple of days ago. 

Anyway, we'll never agree on Antoine. I respect your opinion on him, because
I recognize that you're as knowledgeable a basketball guy as there is on the
list. But I disagree.

Mark


Paul M. wrote:

Do you know what's not inbetween Mark. This team is a steaming pile of crap
without Antoine on the court with his ugly game 40+ minutes every night.
He's ugly, he's stupid, he's selfish...and he's the reason this team can
even crawl close to .500.

-------


Most of us get it Paul. Just wondering why you didn't post the same thing
after the Golden State and Seattle losses...

It's pretty clear that as Walker goes, so go the Celts. He played great
against Denver and LA (note the high assists) and pretty well against
Portland (note the 10 free throw attempts). Fantastic. So why not more
often? Are we satisfied with building the team around a guy who plays well
50 percent of the time (and that's probably generous)?

There are undeniable truths about Antoine: He is fearless and will make a
lot of big shots... He's a good rebounder... He's a talented ball-handler
and passer... He's ridiculously inefficient... He has terrible shot
selection... He can be selfish at times... 

Bottom line: He is what he is. Not as bad as some make him out to be, but
not as good as you insist. 

I didn't want to talk about this today, but how is your praise of Antoine
this morning any different than Ray's emergence after a painful loss? You're
both using the best/worst case scenario to prop up your arguments. The truth
is somewhere in between.

Mark

Paul M. wrote:

You know, this team would be a lot better with a more traditional power
forward like Brian Grant or PJ Brown. I'm really getting tired of Walker's
horrific shooting percentage and all those threes. Someone with a nice
dependable inside game, that's what this team needs. Tonight was just
another one of those meaningless wins you hear so much about onlist. The
tough part of the schedule starts now.

Paul M.