RE: Vin Baker

["Berry, Mark S" <berrym@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

We'll have to agree to disagree, Joe. WHEN Vin manages to get good post
position without fouling, and WHEN he manages to catch the ball when he has
that position, he has been OK, I guess. I say that very grudgingly. He still
isn't finishing much. His shooting percentage is anemic for an alleged
low-post scorer. I just don't see much there. He isn't active at all. 

I really don't see how you can compare him in a positive way to Parish or
Walton. Those guys were warriors. Parish's low-post offense was different-a
turnaround jumper-but much more effective, even though the strength of his
game was his defense and rebounding (career weaknesses for Vin). Walton,
with the Celtics, was a sixth man of course, but during that glorious 1986
season when he was healthy, he was an absolute force off the bench. He
rebounded, blocked shots, scored some, and, most importantly, was a
brilliant passer. He entered the game and made an impact. Vin enters the
game and you don't notice. I just don't see how you can compare them
positively in any way. 

You wrote: "But relatively speaking Baker's fine to above average compared
to true centers around the league, or even "old school" centers we've had 
in the past (Hall of Fame caliber centers)." 

Above average? Even in this center-starved league, Baker has been nothing
short of abysmal. I'm not even talking relative to his contract. His play,
even if he were a minimum-wage guy, has been bad. I don't see how you can
paint it any other way. And above average compared to the Hall of Fame
caliber centers in Boston in the past? I don't see how you can possibly say
that.

You concluded: " People shouldn't get worked up about Vin Baker as long as
we're winning, regardless of what Callahan and other write."

On this point, we completely agree. He's a bit player (thankfully). This is
Pierce and Walker's team, with solid contributions from Battie, Delk, and
the Williams boys. The only reason I get worked up about Baker is because of
what he means for the future of this franchise, and what he should mean for
Chris Wallace's future (he shouldn't have one). But for crying out loud,
there are people on this list who consider Kedrick the key to the season,
even though we have no evidence that he'll be anything more than a
jumping-jack off the bench-if he even gets off the bench. It's only natural
that our $50 million man catch a little heat.

Mark



 -----Original Message-----
From: 	hironaka@nomade.fr [mailto:hironaka@nomade.fr] 
Sent:	Monday, December 09, 2002 6:05 PM
To:	berrym@BATTELLE.ORG
Cc:	celtics@igtc.com
Subject:	Re: Vin Baker

> ---------- Initial message -----------
> 
>  And, I'm sure you know, Vin looks as bad as his stats. 
He's terrible.
>

Wow, I really don't agree! If Tony Battie attempted the 
same pivot and upfakes, much less the occasional dribble 
drives, that Vin Baker rolls into, he would look clumsier 
by far. I'm certain of this. 

I'd like to see Battie attempt a turnaround or post move 
this year, but I don't think its happened to date.

To put it another way, Baker seems more refined on his 
pivot moves compared to Parish or Walton (circa 1986). 
These are the only Celtics centers I can really compare 
him to, having largely missed out on earlier eras. If you 
strongly disagree with this assertion, let's argue.

Baker's not as swift as Parish, but not as clumsy or 
stiff-legged. Parish had the ball stripped by guards 
frequently, comparitively speaking. 

Walton also was rapidly losing his grace and mobility of 
course. He rarely laid down effective pivot moves of the 
quality that Baker has shown this year. Do you disagree?

I missed last week's Philly game and a few others, but 
I've yet to see Baker miss by a mile off of any pivot 
move. 

Sundov is the only other big man who has tried any kind 
of post move this year, and you've seen the results. He's 
1-10 on 2-point FG% so far.

Once Baker goes into a given pivot move, he seems very 
much in control. And if it were smooth but strictly 
robotic, like Walker in the past and occasional present, 
Baker wouldn't be able to adjust to how the defense 
reacts. He'd get his shot blocked.

But not only does Baker show strong technique on his 
initial pivot move, but I see he notices and is able to 
adjust a little to where his defender is at the end of 
the move. He basically has a strong professional grasp of 
that part of the game. Its a rare thing these days.

Mark, I can hardly believe we are this far off in our 
opinion. He's been disappointing, but not "terrible".

I felt that what George Callahan wrote about Baker's 
clumsiness and effort was phony. I felt he probably tuned 
into only a few games all year.

These evaluations are relative position-by-position, 
don't expect Baker to be Walker. But relatively speaking 
Baker's fine to above average compared to true centers 
around the league, or even "old school" centers we've had 
in the past (Hall of Fame caliber centers).

I've said it before, I think its appropriate to fault 
Chris Wallace for not recognizing that this type of 
player could be a dinosaur. That's exactly what Baker has 
been, with the new defensive rules. 

But as far as saying Baker looks "terrible", I couldn't 
agree. In terms of back-to-the-basket technique he looks 
good in his opportunities and makes the most of it. 

And as far as Baker making grossly obvious or clumsy 
fouls, again, I think I just need to be more attentive 
about in watching him. 

He gotten a fair number of whistles that aren't very 
apparent in the televised replays. Maybe you disagree. 
Maybe I missed some idiotic reach-ins or not-part-of-the-
game shoves. I don't recall these types of fouls.

Obviously I must be really wrong, or partly wrong, about 
Vin Baker. I say that sincerely. ANd since I'm voicing 
opinions on him, I'll try to pay stricter attention to 
his game from now on. Up to now, there have been more 
interesting controversies to focus on during games. 
People shouldn't get worked up about Vin Baker as long as 
we're winning, regardless of what Callahan and other 
write.

Joe H.

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