Re: BSG Says Walker Out Of Control

["Cecil Wright" <cecil@hfx.eastlink.ca>]

I attribute part of Webber's effectiveness to the presence of Peja who has
emerged as one of the best outside shooters in the league as well as the
underrated Vlade Divac who I actually view as a better passer than Webber.

In short, I think Chris has been the benefactor of more weapons to
compliment his game than does Toine.  But I agree with you that if we had a
decent option at PF who was not a foul magnet, it would make perfect sense
for Toine to move to the SF position.

Cecil


----- Original Message -----
From: "Berry, Mark S" <berrym@BATTELLE.ORG>
To: "'Cecil Wright'" <cecil@hfx.eastlink.ca>; "Berry, Mark S"
<berrym@BATTELLE.ORG>; "'I am. . . Anonymous'" <ktoreed@yahoo.com>;
<wayray@ix.netcom.com>; <celtics@igtc.com>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 8:29 AM
Subject: RE: BSG Says Walker Out Of Control


> That's fine Cecil, but my point is there are just as many examples of
> players going the other way.
>
> While we're on the subject of Webber... during his four years in
Washington
> he averaged anywhere between 20.1 and 23.7 points. Between 7.6 and 10.3
> rebounds. He shot between 48.2 and 54.3 percent from the floor. Averaged
> between 3.8 and 5.0 assists. It's not as if Washington didn't know what it
> had. They traded him after several off-the-court problems (not a problem
> with Toine) and because they felt he and Juwan Howard, the exemplary
citizen
> (they thought), duplicated each other. They made a bad choice in keeping
> Howard, and a bad decision in trading for Richmond. But what if they had
> traded for Jason Kidd? Or the pick that became Kevin Garnett? Would
everyone
> still be holding up the Chris Webber trade as the cautionary tale for any
GM
> considering trading a young power forward? Believe me, I'm not saying
trade
> Toine for Mitch Richmond or his equivalent. I'm saying, if you won't play
> him at small forward, make a good, smart trade. If Toine goes on to be
Chris
> Webber, so be it. If we do our homework and get good players in return
(like
> Dallas did in the Kidd-for-Finley/Nash deal), then we can be happy for
Toine
> and the Celtics at the same time.
>
> By the way, BSG talked about lazy basketball and shooting too many
> 3-pointers... Webber shot 151 and 205 threes in his last two seasons in
> Washington. He shot 34 and 95 in his first two seasons in Sacramento and
21
> so far this season. Do you think his increased effectiveness is just a
> coincidence? Do you see any sign that Toine is getting the same message
> Webber apparently got?
>
> Toine as a power forward isn't working. It has been five years. Let's move
> on--either by moving Toine to SF or to another team for talent that fits
> better with the Celts.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cecil Wright [mailto:cecil@hfx.eastlink.ca]
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 3:16 PM
> To: Berry, Mark S; 'I am. . . Anonymous'; wayray@ix.netcom.com;
> celtics@igtc.com
> Subject: Re: BSG Says Walker Out Of Control
>
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I think the post was actually meant not as a direct comparison between
Toine
> and CWebb, but more of a plea to exercise patience while Toine grows into
> the player many think he is capable of being.  Do you think Washington, in
> retrospect would still have pulled the trigger so quickly on him or
Rasheed,
> knowing that they didn't give them time to mature?  I don't either and I
> think that was the point of the post.
>
> But since you mentioned it, I don't think it is a complete accident that
> Toine routinely kills any team CWebb is on.
>
> Cecil
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Berry, Mark S" <berrym@BATTELLE.ORG>
> To: "'I am. . . Anonymous'" <ktoreed@yahoo.com>; "Berry, Mark S"
> <berrym@BATTELLE.ORG>; <wayray@ix.netcom.com>; <celtics@igtc.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 7:23 AM
> Subject: RE: BSG Says Walker Out Of Control
>
>
> > I'm not going to address this whole message because so much of it is
based
> > on things I don't think anyone on the list has actually suggested. The
> part
> > I'm going to zero in on is the Walker-Webber comparison. It isn't the
> first
> > time it has come up.
> >
> > Both were young, talented power forwards who didn't seem to be "getting
> it."
> > The Wizards traded Webber for Richmond, and the rest is history. But
there
> > are a few differences. Webber is the prototype power forward. He's 6-10,
> > long-armed, runs like a deer, has the soft hands of a wide receiver,
> scores
> > inside and out, is the best passing big man in the league, enjoys
passing
> > and doesn't mind throwing his muscle around. Remember, the Wizards also
> > traded Rasheed Wallace for Rod Strickland, and that turned out about the
> > same way.
> >
> > As for Toine... I've said several times, and will again, that if the
Celts
> > shift him to small forward and beef up the power positions, I'm all for
> > keeping Toine around. But if they plan to build this team around an
> > undersized, soft, borderline uncoachable power forward, then they're
> > finished. Trade him this offseason when his BYC is off and the Celtics'
> > somewhat improved play under O'Brien might raise his stock. Small
forward
> or
> > trade... those are the options, in my opinion.
> >
> > But back to the Webber thing... why do you assume Toine will be another
> > Webber? Maybe he's another Derrick Coleman. Coleman was the most
talented
> > power forward in the NBA--he had Toine's ball skills, but the perfect
> power
> > forward's body. He had some seasons that compare favorably to Toine's
> best.
> > But some of the same questions followed him (conditioning, selfishness)
> and
> > now he's seen as the ultimate team cancer. Or maybe Toine is Shawn
Kemp...
> > or Vin Baker... or maybe he's just Antoine Walker, and trying to say
he's
> > Chris Webber waiting to happen is as silly as saying he's definitely
going
> > to end up like Derrick Coleman.
> >
> > You disagree with our thoughts, that's fine. But bring more to the table
> > than "Chris Webber did it, so Toine will too..."
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: I am. . . Anonymous [mailto:ktoreed@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 9:51 AM
> > To: Berry, Mark S; 'wayray@ix.netcom.com'; 'celtics@igtc.com'
> > Subject: Re: BSG Says Walker Out Of Control
> >
> >
> > Both Mark and (of course) Way of the Ray or whatever
> > his name is are WACK.
> >
> > Remember when Chris Webber was a Washington Bullet?
> > Well, those morons traded the young stud player that
> > was carrying their team (unsuccessfully due to lack of
> > supporting talent) for a "proven veteran" and look at
> > what happenned to them.  We aren't going to get Bibby
> > and Swift for a Walker or a Pierce.  Sorry.
> >
> > I believe the difference in our attitudes can be
> > summed up thusly.
> >
> > I believe that we have two good players, Walker and
> > Pierce, who we should surround with quality players
> > like the Bucks did with Allen and G. Robinson.  They
> > have Cassell, K. Thomas, Ham, E. Johnson, L. Hunter...
> > excellent excellent supporting players who would start
> > on our team to back them up.  We rely on Pots and
> > Blount at Center and Randy Brown, Palacio,
> > Herren/Kenny at PG.  For swingmen we have Bryant Stith
> > and Eric Williams.  That's why we lose, because our
> > supporting cast reeks.  That is the logical
> > explanation.
> >
> > But the I-HATE-WALKER-MORE-THAN-THE RIGHT-WING-HATES
> > CLINTON crowd believes:  we suck because our PF takes
> > 3s and Pierce needs to lift weights.  Walker hits his
> > 3s.  The guy leads the team in assists and rebounds,
> > if shooting 3s gets him on his game and he hits a
> > decentage percentage then who am I to nitpick?  Pierce
> > needs to lift weights?  Are you kidding me?  Have you
> > even seen the kid?  His upper body is YOKED.  I mean,
> > the kid is ripped.  He needs to lift more weights?
> > Huh?
> >
> > And as for the supporting cast?  The
> > I-HATE-WALKER-MORE-THAN-THE RIGHT-WING-HATES CLINTON
> > rationalizes that: Walker is the cancer who is holding
> > back Pierce's game as well as the rest of his
> > teammates due to his selfishness.  We should trade
> > Walker even though it will be impossible for us to get
> > fair value in return, just like when the Bullets
> > traded Webber.  Then Blount, Stith, and Brown will be
> > liberated to open up their mad offensive game.  Just
> > like how when Jordan "retired" to play baseball Randy
> > Brown, Steve Kerr, and Perdue/Cartwright? opened their
> > games and showed their real offense.  But even without
> > Jordan the Bulls managed to easily make the playoffs.
> > Without Walker... this team is worse than the Clippers
> > and in the same class as the Bullets, or Wizards,
> > whatever they call themselves.
> >
> > On a side note:  Every time Walker touches the ball
> > the opposing point guard is there to disrupt him
> > before he can even set up.  Unless our point guards
> > grow some balls and start knocking down those easy-ass
> > open jumpers, we aren't going to be winning for awhile.
> >
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