Re: On Bird & Pitino

[Alex Wang <awang@mit.edu>]

> |   Pretty much the same group of guys did win 52 games two years in a row
> |   from 1994-1996, so it's not exactly true that they "never did anything".
> 
> OK, point taken -- they had two good years under Larry Brown before
> they let down, but IMO, Bird has brought them to another level.

I'm not disputing that Bird has done a good job making a good team better.
He's done a good, solid coaching job. I just don't think he's been a miracle
worker with this team.

> |   Yes, they are unathletic, but haven't the Celtics succeeded in the past
> |   with unathletic teams?
> 
> Indiana has one legitimate, but aging, All-Star.  The Celtics had 3 of
> the top 50 of all time.

I'm not trying to make an equivalent comparison. The Celtics had more
talent, but much more success too. You made a point about Indiana being
an unathletic team and my point is, unathletic does not mean bad.

> |   They have size, great shooting, and a ton of
> |   experience. I'm not saying that Bird hasn't done an outstanding job 
> |   but he did start out with a much better situation than Pitino did,
> |   which I believe was Gene's original point. 
> 
> Talent-wise, today, would you do an even swap for their team?

If I was judged solely on how many wins I will have next year, I'd easily
make the swap (assuming they don't blow the team up). The biggest mistake
fans make is equating their view of "talent", which is judged as some
combination of athleticism, pure scoring ability, and "upside" and usually
found in unproven young players, with current ability to win. 

Besides Miller, who is a legitimate multiple-time All-Star - voted in 
by the coaches three times - you have three marginal All-Star talents,
Smits, Jackson, and Davis, over Bird's tenure as coach. They have a 
deep bench that's been developed over several years. 

Now I wouldn't make the swap of personnel because I have eventual hopes
for our young team. But in general, with anywhere near the same "talent",
old teams are much better than young teams. 

> Rik Smits:	 7'4" and gets 5 rebounds a game.
> Mark Jackson:	 The slowest point guard in the NBA.
> Jalen Rose:	 Bird has hypnotized him into being a good player.
> 		 He's never shown any potential to be the player he is now,
> 		 either in college, or in the pros.  If he was on another
> 		 team, no way he'd be a 16ppg player.
> Reggie Miller:   He's almost twice as old as Kobe Bryant -- a more
> 		 one-dimensional player you will be hard-pressed to find.
> Dale Davis:	 The worst All-Star player in recent history.
 
I think you just choose out each player's worst characteristic (sort of)
and use it to argue that they have poor talent. Smits is over the hill
now and injured but two years ago he gave them 17 and 7. Jackson may 
indeed be slow but is he untalented? Wasn't Magic Johnson considered
not particularly athletic? Jackson's averaged over 8 apg over his
career and was the rookie of the year and All-Star under Pitino, who he
still calls the best coach he's ever had. Miller is old but basically
as good as he's always been. I would think that Davis being an All-Star
is actually a vindication of Bird's coaching (getting the most production
out of his talent) but really I don't think he's doing much that he hasn't
always done in his career - defend and rebound, the vital things that
rarely get credit with All-Star appearances but have everything to do
with winning. 
 
> Somebody just posted saying that Jackson, Rose and Miller are
> "athletic" ... which I can only say is bizarre.  In what way is Mark
> Jackson "athletic"?

Sure, Miller and Jackson are unathletic. This is another example of
the fallacy that "athletic=good". Bird was widely considered "unathletic"
himself so I'm sure he knows better than to make this mistake.

Bird's done a good job as coach. But you make it sound like he's taken
a bunch of losers ("slowest point guard", "one-dimensional scorer", "worst
All-Star" - kind of a weird insult) and turned them into gold. The truth
is that these are solid, veteran players who don't have fantastic leaping
ability for Sportscenter highlights but have plenty of basketball ability
and a combined century-plus of NBA experience. There's really no comparing
that team to a rebuilding effort like Pitino has faced.

Alex