RE: Fellowship of the miserable

["John Lyell" <Jlyell@concentric.net>]

See my responses

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-celtics@igtc.com [mailto:owner-celtics@igtc.com]On Behalf Of
Alex Wang
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 8:12 PM
To: John Lyell; celtics@igtc.com
Subject: Re: Fellowship of the miserable



> I don't know how you cannot look at all of the moves that have been made
and
> say he should not be accountable for them ?

John,

I am not saying that he should not be held accountable for all of his
moves. My problem is with the "accounting" techniques that are used to
justify your criticism for him. For instance, you criticize him for
multiple bad moves in signing Travis Knight and trading for Tony
Battie, when the net effect has essentially been trading $2M of 97-98
cap space for Tony Battie.


john

$2M plus knights $3M equals $5-6M of cap space he could have used more
wisely. You are correct this does not get you much at today's rate but could
have gotten us a Bo Outlaw, or some cap space.

You can like or not like the acquisition of
Tony Battie, but if you don't, it's one mistake, not two.

john

This accounting as a single move makes sense, but still $6M against the cap
restraints.


What really matters is, do you like his current
roster? You sound like you don't and there is nothing wrong with that,
everyone has a right to their own opinion.  But just listing Pitino's
numerous "mistakes" and saying they outnumber his good moves doesn't
prove he's some sort of personnel idiot. If anything, many GMs are
hesitant to correct their own mistakes because it involves admitting
their own mistakes. By this sort of accounting technique, their
batting average is higher, but the team they end up with is usually
mediocre.

john

I do like the fact that he does not stand pat like the previous regime, and
at least tries to makes some moves in attempt to improve chemistry and the
strength of the team. He just has not had a lot of luck, which may be very
well due to the fact these players are not really worth much on the market,
and their current level of play does not help.

>You get what you pay for. How much do you think a proven young
physical 4 or 5 costs in the league nowadays? $71M, basically, and
that's generally a bargain. Battie, as an unproven, inconsistent, and
not particularly physical prospect, but with good offensive and
shotblocking potential, goes for $25M. Whether it is a good move or
not, we won't know until his contract is up in 7 years.

John

I agree with you here.


> As far as the young for old, their are both pro's & cons of this. The pro
> "At least we have a young nucleus" (Something the Clippers have been
saying
> this for the last 10 years), The con, we do not have any experienced go to
> leaders, and cannot draw a veteran free agent to Boston. name me one major
> talent that has even considered Boston as a place to play over the last 5
> years ?  The only one I can think of is Vin Baker, and possibly Charles
> Oakley, who mentioned it.

Mitch Richmond said flat out that he would have no problem playing in
Boston.  Scottie Pippen was willing to accept the trade to Boston in
97 and said how he would assume that Boston would sign him to a
lucrative long-term deal under the Bird exception given the investment
in the trade that they would have to make.

john,


As you have stated, you can't always believe what you hear.

>

Do you really think that Pitino is afraid to pull the trigger? He's
traded one major piece every season so far (Billups in 97-98, Mercer
in 99).  It's not like he's stuck in "can't trade" mode or something,
but let's be a little patient here. It's only been 14 games since
Pitino's last big trade (Mercer), we haven't seen the fruits of that
trade yet (Fortson), and you're already talking about breaking up the
team again. I could see Walker getting dealt if the season goes badly
because Pitino does seem somewhat dissatisfied with him. Whatever,
that's a little far afield.

John

He has as far as moving someone for a bonified star. We are not going to get
a Mutombo, Steve Smith, Grant hill type of player without giving up Walker
or Pierce, which may be are only two players with any value.

My main point is, judge Pitino's personnel moves by the team he
actually has now, not through some misleading accounting system that
judges individual moves out of context. I have no problem with people
not liking the current personnel but personally I think he's done a
nice job with what he started with. And stop the "Boston can't attract
veteran free agent" BS unless you can somehow substantiate it.  It's
just one of those criticisms that gets constantly repeated and as far
as I can tell has absolutely no factual basis.

John

With no actual big name signings either, you could argue both positions can
or can not be substantiated.




Alex