Re: My Final Post On "The Great Debate"

[Keithjmoon70@xxxxxxx]

In a message dated 11/12/02 11:44:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
sschrade@ascpl.lib.oh.us writes:

> I've presented my viewpoints &Jon has presented his.  As someone has
> said, we're not gonna change each other's opinions any time soon so
> let's end it &get back on the Who train.
> 

I didn't bring up science, but I did bring up Pete's  involvement with God. I 
didn't intend to carry on any harsh debate that bothers others. But I will 
not be political in this matter.

I think this is an important subject to explore in  The Who.  It is what has 
intrigued me for years about Pete Townshend.   It sure beats talking about 
wether or not Roger might dye his hair. 

To possibly see what lifehouse may have been about? That is surely a Who 
topic.  I could go song by song and lyric by lyric that has touched me.  I 
don't want to offend *science* though, and in turn, bore you all. (Except 
Kevin and Mark and Johanna and Helen)

The Who is not an ordinary band.  They have Pete Townshend. No, he is not 
God.  He is however an extraordinary man that has a way to put into words the 
feelings that I already have for God and life in general as well.  He has 
struck chords that no one else in rock has done before.  I would like to know 
how he knows what he knows?  I would like to know what he actually does know. 


Tommy is simply incredible.  Tommy is not Jesus, Tommy is us.  *We* are the 
deaf, dumb and blind ones that have been blinded and abused by other forces 
and then threatened not to tell!!!  "You didn't hear it!"  "You didn't see 
it!" "You'll say nothing to NO ONE, Ever in you life. You never heard it, Oh 
how absurd it all seems without any *PROOF*. You didn't hear it. You didn't 
see it.  You won't say nothing to no one ever in your life, What you *know* 
is the truth.  At this point he was spiritually blind, metaphorically 
portrayed by his physical blindness.  Thus he couldn't hear or speak either.  
He just was. He didn't start to cause trouble until he SMASHED the mirror!  I 
believe the mirror is the self.  The same self that has to be "lost" to find 
God. 

One and one don't make two, one and one make one. This is not logical.  But 
it is the truth. The truth needs spiritual insight to comprehend. "Absurd," 
yes.  The truth? an even stronger yes. It is God's desire to be one with us. 
We are like a glove, He is like an invisible hand. We express Him, and He 
fill us with reality.  Until the hand enters the glove, the glove is 
meaningless.  But it still "resembles" the hand.  God wants to reveal Himself 
and be expressed.  He will only do it in man. 

It is the same principle with the concept of the "Empty glass."  If we are 
filled to the brim with oh, let's say... Science for instance, He will not 
have any room to enter into us and be our reality.  We will be too full for 
Him to fit. He will just let us be. This is just like when Jesus was born in 
Bethlehem.  God became a man there. This is the most wonderful event in 
history. But even at that time, like on this list, there was no room for Him. 
 They were told to go out in the barn.  When He was born He was laid in a 
manger.  A manger is a food trough!!  This is God coming to feed Himself to 
man. Even when He is rejected, He will still feed those that are open. The 
Maggi from the East came and asked where He was to be born.  The "Religious" 
ones told them the exact time and the exact place the Messiah was to be born. 
 They knew it all.  But they themselves did not go!!  Sadly, most of 
Christianity is exactly like this today. Knowing it all, but not knowing this 
wonderful Person or caring to *see* Him.

I do not have much of a heart to go through all of the sarcastic remarks, but 
here goes...

>>Now, let's jump into the poppycock that was your last post:

OK

>>More nonsensical quips that mean nothing. The thing I'm thirsty for
is KNOWLEDGE, not fairy tales & lies. And you're not serving anything
that can quench *that* thirst, my friend.

OK

>>No, I'm not getting mad. I've met you, Jon. You're cool. I'm just
"gettin' into" the discussion, that's all. You're still my buddy. ;-)


That is why I dig you, Scott, 

>>Er....you might want to brush up on your scientific reading there,
Spiritual Boy. Our Earth does NOT keep perfect time. Millions of 
years ago the Earth was much closer to Sun & the "day" lasted only
about 20 hours instead of 24.

The Earth is pulling away in it's orbit ever so slightly each time it
swings around our glorious Sun. That's why we had to add a "leap sec-
ond" to the year a while back. Remember that? That was to adjust to
the slowing down of the Earth's orbit.


Yeah, but in the last 6000 years of "human" history it has been pretty timely 
and reliable.

>>
So, I'm afraid your pretty little analogy of the solar system being
set in motion like a complicated, hand-made, accurate timepiece is 
JUST PLAIN WRONG. Once again, the actual facts, which you conven-
iently ignore, prove otherwise

I bet the Rolex would be in pretty bad shape after a few million years 
though, you know, compared to a "solar system" that just came out of an 
*explosion*.  Oh yeah, is that how they make Rolex watches?


>>I'm afraid to say that our Sun will indeed "burn out" in about another
4 or 5 billion years. But have no fear - the Earth will have been in-
cinerated long before that when our Sun swells outward during it's red 
giant phase.

I do not intend to stick around that long.

>>Stars, like our Sun, are born, live, & then die. The length of their
"lives" depends on how much mass they started out with. This has all
been proven by science. Oddly, the wise men who wrote the Bible were
ignorant of this information. And apparently, since much of the Bible
professes to be the word of God, God himself was ignorant of this in-
formation. Hmmmm....odd that. A dumb God.


Can you *prove* that God was ignorant of this?  Oh yeah, this is just a 
rebuttal. I mentioned earlier that the bible was not intended to be a since 
textbook, nor is God interested in merely satisfying our human curiosity.  If 
you actually read this book you will see that the first verse says: "In the 
beginning God created the heavens and the earth." and the second verse says 
"And the earth *became* waste and void and darkness was upon the face  of the 
deep."  The time interval between verse 1 and verse 2 is unknown.  It may 
have been millions or even billions of years. There were created beings on 
the earth before this earth *became* waste.  This is where we get all of the 
fossils and bones.  There were human-like beings on this earth, but they were 
not humans. I could really get into this but this is a Who list and I have to 
respect the others and keep this at least short-"er".  Then God came into 
restore the judged earth and He further created. On the 6th day he made man. 


>>Galileo believed in God, too. But that didn't stop the Catholic Church
from putting him under house arrest for claiming that the Earth re-
volved around the Sun. Religious people & organizations have a nice
track record when it comes to trying to suppress scientific facts. 
That's something you should be proud of. You're doing a good job of 
continuing that trend, Jon. Congratulations. You'll be rewarded for 
your deceit when you get to Heaven, I'm sure.

I do not agree with people being arrested for proving scientific facts. (PST. 
I think you know that already). But Einstein was a pretty sharp guy though, 
huh?

>>That's not the case in the dozens of science books I've read. I'm here
to tell you, after much study & thought, that GOD DOES NOT EXIST. He
is not needed in our universe. He is not needed in my life. He is not
needed in my mind. I'm content, happy, & fulfilled without him. 


Whew!!!  I almost believe it!  But keep on...

>>In conclusion, you may believe what you wish, Jon, but I WILL NOT have 
you distort, alter, change, reword, misinterpret, or misrepresent beauti-
ful scientific concepts that people have worked very hard to uncover.


You got it!  Keep going...

>>YOU WILL NOT continue to spread lies & misinformation to further your
own unverifiable religious beliefs. THOU SHALT NOT LIE, Jon! THOU
SHALT NOT LIE!!


Whoa!!


>>Leave science alone & stick with your vague, convoluted, untestable
spiritual nonsense. Science has work to do & truths to discover. Stay
out of its way, please.


If you say so, Sir. 

I did not mean to get you so worked up there Scott, fighting so hard against 
Someone who *doesn't even exist*.  

Jon in Mi.