Fwd: REM vs everyone else, Beatles 4 ever

["Jeremy Craine" <jcraine@hotmail.com>]

Regarding the debate/argument below it seems you are all looking at this 
from an American perspective i.e. the "big" bands in the USA...

The main reason I say this is The Jam...
They were THE singles band of the 70's and HEAVILY influenced by The 
Who...they even covered a couple of songs..

Anyone who does'nt know their stuff - I urge you - buy Greatest Hits..
you will never look back....


 
>
>Carolyn wrote:
>>But OK, whatever; just to
>save a big long drawn-out argument, I give to both you and Leo.
>>The Who is the greatest group ever, and REM sucks.  Guess I'll
>have to throw out all my REM records, including the >autographed 
RECKONING LP
>I got back in '84.  Not to mention my Beatles records.
>>Must've been kidding myself all those years...all that endless 
studying
>>of Beatles books wasted...better pitch them too.
>
>Nice try Carolyn, but considering that this gallant concession was 
tacked on
>at the end of your huge argument refuting all of mine and Mark's points 
I'd
>say you're pulling the same gag my best friend often pulls on me when 
we get
>into a heated debate.  I make a point, then she blasts forth with a 
half hour
>barrage in response, but as I prepare to speak, she quickly ends with, 
"But
>we're just going in circles so I don't want to talk about it anymore."  
I
>didn't buy it when she did it either.  The dealmaking comes before the 
trial,
>not after closing arguments.  
>
>>>>They are the best group of the past 20 years
>
>>>Ridiculous.  Countless groups are and were better:  The Police,
>
>>They could've been another Beatles (or Who, Mark) if they hadn't 
imploded at
>the height of their creativity.  And Sting's >solo work...what a 
heartbreak
>that is.  But too short a life span.
>
>I would never mention Sting's horrifying solo stuff in the same breath 
with
>the Police's best work, and I'm not a huge Police fan, but despite 
their short
>lifespan The Police's best songs are far superior to anything REM did 
even
>with their life-support longevity.
>
>>>The Pretenders
>
>>Had two-and-a-half great albums and then fell apart.  Nope.
>
>Two-and-a-half great albums is better than none, as in REM's case.
>
>>>Squeeze
>
>>Singles band.  A great one, but still.
>
>Again, quality versus quantity.  You don't need to be an album group to 
be
>great.  Their songs are just better.  REM never wrote anything near as 
good as
>"Tempted".
>
>>>Cracker, The Cure
>
>>Ah, it all comes clear now.  We're obviously arguing from two
>entirely different planets.
>
>Cracker is closer in style, spirit and sense of humor to The Who than 
most
>bands I can think of.  "Teen Angst" and "Get On With It" are funnier, 
wittier,
>and have more straightforward energy than anything REM has released on 
radio
>(possible exception, "The End of The World" which I do love)  Also, if 
the
>gems are left on REM's albums that's their fault not mine.  Groups 
decide what
>they put out on the air, and what REM's selling I ain't buying.
>The Cure is spinning its wheels now, but they are one of the few New 
Wave
>bands that knew how to play guitar and didn't put me in a coma with
>mindnumbing synth droning.  Again, I just think their songs are better, 
and
>not nearly as preachy as REM's stuff.
>
>>>Peter Gabriel
>
>>Not a band.  Damn great solo artist, tho.  
>
>You know what I mean.  Band, solo artist; they're all musical entities.  
Lets
>skip the semantics and get on with the battle.
>
>>Amazing how both his [Gabriel's] work and Genesis's improved 
>drastically
>after he split.
>
>I agree with the person who refuted this.  Gabriel's solo stuff is 
amazing
>anyway (and he gave one of the best concert's I've ever seen), but the 
Gabriel
>Genesis was a much better band than the Collins version.  Compare "The 
Lamb
>Lies Down On Broadway" with "ABACAB".  There IS no comparison, ABACAB 
sounds
>sophomoric against that old stuff.  Plus Gabriel's lyrics for Genesis 
were the
>best they ever had again.  Not as popular, but a far better 
incarnation.
>Post-Gabriel Genesis was the group all the jocks and cheerleaders 
chanted at
>the Homecoming Game.  Big deal.
>
>>>And lastly, when both bands were at their peak, REM never >>touched 
U2, the
>best band of the
>>>80s (their post-Joshua Tree nonsense notwithstanding).
>
>>U2 was/is another incredibly erratic group in terms of >quality.  
>
>Only after "Unforgettable Fire".  That and all before it is gold.
>
>>Yes, JOSHUA TREE is fantastic, as well as BOY...
>
>Joshua Tree is good, but is too polished for me.  BOY is a raw 
masterpiece.
>
>>but everything else is a few gems surrounded by dreck, 
>
>WAR is dreck??  UNDER A BLOOD RED SKY is dreck??  We ARE on different 
planets!
>
>>or else complete dreck (their last two records).  
>
>I grant the "dreckness" of U2's last two records (make it the last 
three if
>you like), but aside from "The End of The World" and "Radio Free 
Europe", REM
>has nothing BUT dreck.
>
>>On the whole, REM's work is far better.
>
>Ridiculous.  Their best work against U2's best is not a contest.  REM 
never
>wrote anything as good as "I Will Follow", "New Year's Day", or "Sunday 
Bloody
>Sunday" and U2 destroy them live.  Obnoxious baloney like "Shiny Happy 
People"
>and pretentious nonsense like "Losing My Religion" is no substitute for 
good
>songwriting.
>
>>>>probably the best American group *ever*
>
>>>God no!!  Creedence!<
>
>>Singles band, plus short life span.
>
>Again with the hang up on singles bands.  A good song is a good song 
however
>it's packaged.  The same goes for the longevity hangup.  Did you know 
that
>after 15 plus years Quiet Riot still plays live?  Does that make them 
better
>than CCR also?  I didn't think so.  Again, it comes down to the songs.  
REM
>never wrote anything as good as "Fortunate Son" or "Proud Mary" or 
"Travelin
>Band" or.... Creedence's list of 'Songs Better Than Anything By REM' is 
too
>long and I've already used up way too much bandwidth.
>
>>>The Allman Brothers!
>
>>Great instrumentalists, but I can do without a group that >thinks a 30 
minute
>jam on one song is a good thing.
>
>Depends on the group, depends on the song.  Allman Brothers can 
sometimes pull
>it off.  I'd have to shoot myself if REM tried it.
>
>>>The Byrds!
>
>>Definitely an influence on REM, I admit, but short life span 
>(speaking of
>the original configuration) plus highly erratic >quality.
>
>I'm glad you admit the influence, but again with the life span thing.  
You
>know Mozart barely lived to see 30 and they say he got some songs out.  
Robert
>Johnson, the Father of the Blues (which would make him an influence on 
REM and
>every other Rock band whether they know it or not), only recorded 
thirty songs
>and he recorded them all in one session.  Talk about a short life span.  
If
>you want to know more about him ask Keith Richards; he's got a huge 
portrait
>of him hanging in his living room.  Again:  "Turn, Turn, Turn", "Eight 
Miles
>High".  REM doesn't stack up.
>
>>>The Velvet Underground!  Lou Reed!
>
>>Velvets were great (and another influence), but Reed can't >sing worth 
a damn
>and has a lot to answer for in terms of >"journalistic" songwriting.  
Besides,
>half his material sucks >on his own.
>
>That's your opinion (though it's wrong).  Besides, Stipe can sing?!?  
That
>nasally whine?  Ugh!  Also, for better or worse Lou Reed WAS the Velvet
>Underground.  "Heroin", "Rock N Roll", "Sweet Jane" were all his, and 
again
>REM never came anywhere near that level of songwriting, and never will.  
And
>his solo stuff, while erratic, still has more gems than anything by 
REM.
>
>>>Not to mention Jimi Hendrix!!! (and I consider the
>>>Experience mainly American since Jimi was the creative >>force).
>
>>I will get creamed for saying this, but if you take away Jimi's
>>fantastic guitar playing (and Noel and Mitch's superb work as
>>well), his songwriting is pretty weak.  
>
>Bullshit.
>"The Wind Cries Mary", "Manic Depression", "Bold As Love".
>Bullshit.
>Besides,  to "take away Jimi's fantastic guitar playing" is more than 
the
>equivalent of taking away all of REM's instruments, their vocal chords 
and
>their latest video director.  In terms of significance to rock music's
>evolution, one Hendrix  guitar solo is worth more than REM's entire 
catalog.
>If REM never happened, rock music would be unaffected by the loss.  If 
Hendrix
>never happened, rock music wouldn't BE rock music.
>
>>Besides, he was more of a solo artist than
>a band.
>
>The name was The Jimi Hendrix Experience and it was most definitely a 
band.
>One of the best ever.
>
>On the Beatles you'll be happy to know that I'm a huge Beatles fan and 
so
>won't jump into the fray about who's better.  I just read Paul 
McCartney's
>autobiography and it's easily the best book on the Beatles I've ever 
read.
>Okay, I've said my longwinded piece.  Now I don't ever want to discuss 
any of
>this with you again, so you win and lets drop it.
>(I kidd, I joke)
>I salute you Carolyn for fighting the good fight, and yeah, I thought 
Jim
>Carrey probably deserved it too.
>-Leo
>


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