From: "Sean Giovanello" <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "'Shawn Niles'" <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx> CC: <Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx>,<jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,<celtics@xxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: Twan rearing his ugly head Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:30:28 -0500
Yep, its opionion based and, to be honest, I hope your opinion turns out to be right because it will be better for the Celts. My head and my gut both tell me it wont.
As for the contention that his salary is 51st or so in the league, it also escalates every year. Its:
$8,178,750 (2003-2004)
$9,087,500 (2004-2005)
$9,996,250 (2005-2006)
$10,905,000 (2006-2007)
$11,813,750 (2007-2008)
$12,722,500 (2008-2009)
That means (counting this year) the Celtics owe Raef 62,703,375 million over the life of the contract. He will be under contract into 2009. That's a lot of dollars and a lot of years.
Looking down the line, many teams don't even have a guy on their roster signed this long. Other guys under current contracts in 08-08 are:
Richard Hamilton 10.5 mil
Steve Francis 16.3
Jermaine O'Neal 21.3 mil
Elton Brand 16.4
Corey Maggette 8.4 mil
Lamar Odom 12.6 mil
Kevin Garnett 24 mil
Wally Szerbiak 13 mil
Jason Kidd 21.3 mil
Baron Davis 16.3 mil
Stephon Marbury 21.9
Juwan Howard 7.35 mil
Allen Iverson 21.9 mil
Eric Snow 7.3 mil
Shawn Marion 16.3 mil
Mike Bibby 14.5
Brad Miller 11.7 mil
Tim Duncan 20.5
Radoslav Nesterovic 8.5 mil
Gilbert Arenas 12.8 mil
Jerry Stackhouse 9 mil
So, the guys under contrat making morethan Raef in the final year of his deal will be: Gilbert Arenas, Tim Duncan, Shawn Marion, Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Baron Davis, Jason Kidd, Szerbiak, Garnett, Elton Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, and Steve Francis.
Looking at those deals, I only see two that I would say are equal or worse - obviously 1 is Stackhouse and the 2nd is still up in the air in Arenas. Take out those two and you are in pretty elite company. Arguably, some of the other guys who are getting older (Kidd and AI) are being rewarded for service prior to those years. However, it's a pretty elite list.
-----Original Message----- From: Shawn Niles [mailto:shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:55 PM To: sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx; jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; celtics@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head
He just had surgery to fix the knee problems you speak of. It's also debatable as to whether or not his desire can be questioned. Probably best to let this thread die off since both sides are pretty much based on opinion. As has been stated, only time will tell the tale of this one.
http://www.geocities.com/fantasybasketballfederation/salaries.htm#t2
>From: Sean Giovanello <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >To: Shawn Niles <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx> >CC: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx, jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, celtics@xxxxxxxx >Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:43:19 -0500 > >Raef will be tradeable in the last year of his contract. Bad knees, >questionable desire, and 5 years remaining at escalating dollar amounts
>make him pretty unattractive. > >For all the other moves, I agree that that contracts are tradeable and if >the market isnt there at a dollar amount that we can ride them out. To me, >thats why Raef is so problematic. It runs contrary to what you assume this >team was about under ainge. It indicates to me that personal distaste got >in the way of business sense. I understand that many disagree with the idea >that he can be traded - however many believe that he had one of the worst >contracts in recent years and that he was a player and contract Dallas was >DESPERATE to move at almost any cost. > >The one saving grace in this trade is Vin Baker. If Vin had not drank >himself out of a job, the Raef contract would have grown more onerous each >year as we would be stuck with 2 max and one creeping closer to max deal >(if someone can confirm the dollars per year on Raefs remaining contract I >would appreciate I have not been able to find it). That would have greatly >reduced flexibility and left Danny with very few options for this year and >next year outside of the midlevel. > >As for his age, he is going to be 29 this year I think. Thats a veteran in >this league - not a youngster. That being said, if his knee holds up and >with chronic knee problems the trend is the other way, he could be a >productive player in the league for another 5-7 years. I am not arguing
>that he cant play. Its just when you lump in his contract he becomes a >pretty unattractive guy to have on your team in an era of cap and tax and a >limited pockets ownership in Boston. > > >Shawn Niles wrote: > >>Many would argue that every one of Danny's trades have been for guys that >>have more talent than the ones he shipped out.. AND.. that he has not >>taken on any unmovable contracts. You say Raef could never be traded. Many >>disagree with that. He was traded to us, wasn't he? And now another year >>is gone from his deal since then, which if we go by your Antoine logic, >>only makes Raef's deal more attractive. Plus, despite your saying that he >>is not, Raef IS actually a young guy. >> >>Ricky could easily be moved. Same with Mihm, Atkins, or Stewart. Danny is >>not taking on contracts that he will be stuck with. He could move anyone >>on this roster at any time. >> >> >>>From: Sean Giovanello <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>To: Shawn Niles <shizzjr@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>>CC: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx, jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, celtics@xxxxxxxx >>>Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head >>>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:35:39 -0500 >>> >>>If you have a guy that can judge talent it can work. If you have a guy >>>who is not universally hated (Krause), it can work. There are risks to >>>every strategy. Regardless, I am not talking about nuking the Celts down >>>to a CBA roster and playing for draft picks and the hope to lure a prize >>>free agent and rebuild. I am talking about a strategy for >>>building/managing a team (I call it the anti-Pitino philosophy) where you >>>try never to take on a contract you will have trouble moving and in every >>>deal you want to be sensitive to those issues. About the only time you >>>would want a long term contract is when its a young guy at a reasonable >>>salary or if you are getting an elite player. Raef is neither of those. I >>>think its moves that ignore this that doom a team like the C's. If Danny >>>does not realize that, I think that regardless of his eye for talent >>>(which he has) that he will ultimately be a failure here. >>> >>>Shawn Niles wrote: >>> >>>>Clearing cap space worked really well for Orlando and Chicago. Teams are >>>>starting to realize that clearing cap space is not the best way to build >>>>your team. >>>> >>>> >>>>>From: "Sean Giovanello" <sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>To: <Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx>, <jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, >>>>><celtics@xxxxxxxx> >>>>>Subject: RE: Twan rearing his ugly head >>>>>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:56:29 -0500 >>>>> >>>>>*** >>>>>Something you never explain, Sean, is just what other trade was out >>>>>there >>>>>that was better than what we got? >>>>>**** >>>>> >>>>>Right before the season started? Probably nothing. There are very very >>>>>few deals available at that time of year. So, we were dealing at the >>>>>wrong time of year, unless you truly believe that Toine was such a >>>>>cancer he had to be dealt immediately. If that's the case, why wasn't >>>>>he dealt over the summer? >>>>> >>>>>My point in all of this is simple NBA logic. As a players contract >>>>>comes closer and closer to being up, his contract gets more valuable. >>>>>Ideally, Walker could have been dealt before the deadline this year
>>>>>and, >>>>>if not, during the offseason or next season at the deadline. At each >>>>>point, IN THEORY, his contract becomes more valuable as a trading chit. >>>>>I am not claiming omnipotence or farseeing abilities here. I am just >>>>>using NBA logic here. >>>>> >>>>>*** >>>>>If Walker opts out this year which I think is 50-50 after listening to >>>>>his radio show last night, the Mavs like the Cs would get nothing for >>>>>him. >>>>>*** >>>>> >>>>>We would get nothing except shedding a max contract - 14 million >>>>>dollars >>>>>per annum!!!! Considering its looking like we have been amazingly lucky >>>>>shedding Vin to then lose Antoine for nothing as you say would be >>>>>amazing luck. Where would it have left our cap to take Walker and Baker >>>>>off? Fundamentally, we have a disagreement over rebuilding here. I >>>>>think the way to rebuild is to create cap flexibility, which we really >>>>>have not. I think creating some space lets you be a player in almost >>>>>anything going on in the NBA - draft, free agency, and trades. If he >>>>>opted out, and even in light of his comments last night, I do not think >>>>>it likely, its not a bad thing. The argument from this view would be >>>>>that if he opted out we would clear some major cap room, not be saddled >>>>>with Raef's escalating deal (which I think pays him close to the max >>>>>the >>>>>last two years), and so forth. We would not have Jiri and we would not >>>>>have Atkins. We would not have the first rounder. However, I think >>>>>most teams would follow the course I have laid out rather than what >>>>>Danny has done. >>>>> >>>>>I fully admit I might be wrong. Nothing is certain in life. I don't >>>>>really have a side here. I liked Toine, but knew he was going to be >>>>>traded. I think he would have had more value down the road, but that >>>>>being said I like Jiri on this team. I just think the longer this deal >>>>>goes (unless we get insanely lucky on this pick) that we will be saying >>>>>it might have been better to keep Cyber Toine for a few more months >>>>>rather than take Raef. >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx [mailto:Celtic4Hire@xxxxxxx] >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:28 AM >>>>>To: sgiovanello@xxxxxxxxxxxx; jahill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; >>>>>celtics@xxxxxxxx >>>>>Subject: Re: Twan rearing his ugly head >>>>> >>>>>Something you never explain, Sean, is just what other trade was out >>>>>there >>>>>that was better than what we got? If Walker opts out this year which I >>>>>think is >>>>>50-50 after listening to his radio show last night, the Mavs like the >>>>>Cs >>>>>would >>>>>get nothing for him. If he doesn't opt out, why do you think a better >>>>>deal is >>>>>out there, even for the Mavs? Look at what we got for Mills expiring >>>>>deal, >>>>>Atkins and a no. 1. Yeah, the Blazers got more for Wallace's contract >>>>>but he is >>>>>better than Twan..... >>>>> >>>>>DJessen33 >>>>> >>>>><< I think its highly unlikely that he will - but if there were a guy >>>>>who >>>>>would do it, I think it would be Antoine. >>>>> >>>>>I don't agree with you on Raef, but time will tell which of us is >>>>>right. >>>>>I just think his talent doesn't justify his salary and that if I recall >>>>>correctly due to the way his contract is structured his salary is not >>>>>an >>>>>even 10 per season, but goes up each year. >>>>> >>>>>I like what we got in return - my point was just that we (as in the >>>>>Celtics and their fans) value that stuff a lot more than Dallas did. >>>>>Mills meant very little to Dallas cause Cuban has a lot deeper pockets >>>>>and is willing to dip into them. For the draft pick, there are >>>>>probably >>>>>a lot of teams who wouldn't be wild about the 27th pick in the first >>>>>round - Danny thinks he can get something or use it in a deal to net >>>>>something back. If he does, excellent. For Dallas, its not that big >>>>>of >>>>>a deal. For Jiri, I am not sure he will be a above average NBA starter >>>>>- but it looks like he might be just what this team or any team needs >>>>>--> a smart, heady player with some skill and some toughness. I don't >>>>>think he is the answer, but he is certainly a piece of the puzzle to >>>>>building a winning team here. Again, for Dallas, they already have >>>>>that >>>>>and thus he goes to being a key cog here versus a minor bit part there. >>>>>None of this is my attempt to run down the extras in this deal - I just >>>>>don't agree with Raef coming back due to a) his contract b) his skills >>>>>and c)the idea that getting rid of cap space and financial flexibility >>>>>for anything less than a true star is bad business in the NBA... >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! >>>>http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar - includes FREE pop-up blocking! >>http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ >> >> > > >
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