Is Danny totally to blame?

[Sean Giovanello]

That seems reasonable - I guess I am just a little more sick of him than
you.  I think most reasonable people agree its put up or shut up time for
Ainge.  I dont see how he could screw up the draft - he has done well
there.  I just have no confidence that he will be able to make the trades
this summer to make the team better.  I think this team needs a vet who can
stroke the 3, a defensive big man (Perk needs to prove himself again), a
veteran PG, and a coach who has a philosophy to which he can try and mold
this team.

On 2/8/07, Berry, Mark S <berrym at battelle.org> wrote:
>
> I'm an Ainge supporter, but I have to think he gets one more year. He
> gets his chance in the draft, in the summer through trades, and with his
> decision on the coach. There are enough good things and extenuating
> circumstances to give him that. And he has some serious assets suddenly
> -- Al, the pick, and Pierce especially, but also Rondo, Delonte, Gomes,
> Green, Perk. If he can't get it done next season, it will be impossible
> to argue that he deserves more time.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: celtics-bounces at igtc.com [mailto:celtics-bounces at igtc.com] On
> Behalf Of Sean Giovanello
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:13 AM
> To: The Boston Celtics Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Is Danny totally to blame?
>
> I am not so much upset as just frustrated with the lack of expectations
> for
> Danny and this team.  I do not see how a GM can take over a team and
> people
> make excuses over and over while the team gets worse rather than better.
> In
> the past, I have defended Ainge and still think he does a good job with
> finding value in the draft.  Outside of that one component of a GMs job,
> I
> would say he has been at best so so and at worst terrible.
>
> In response to your questions:
>
> > 1.  Which veterans were available that would have helped us and how
> would
> > > you have acquired them?
> >
> >
> In regards to veterans available, there have been any number over the
> years.  We never made a play for a quality mid-level player.  Earl
> Watson,
> Juwan Howard, Bob Sura, the list goes on and on for guys that the mid
> level
> could have gotten.  I wont pretend to say this guy or that guy, but the
> fact
> remains that every year there are quality veteran free agents available
> for
> the mid-level or some amount below that.  We fill out our roster with
> the
> Orien Greenes and Justin Reeds of the world rather than veterans who can
> both teach the younger players and also provide a steadying influence in
> the
> locker room.
>
> There have also been plenty of veterans available via trade over the
> years.
> There are dozens of deals that could be made each year that while not
> dramatically transforming a roster can make a real difference in
> improving a
> team.   We could have traded Pierce and rebuilt from scratch a couple
> years
> ago and likely been seeing the light at the end of the tunnel now.  We
> could
> have traded for some guys who might blossom with a change of scenery.  I
> always thought a guy like Carlos Arroyo might have been a nice pickup
> with
> some upside.  A guy like that wont dramatically change the team by
> himself,
> but if you have a philosophy about the type of team you want to build
> you
> will value certain types of players more than others and try to build a
> squad of guys who run or play the half-court etc.  Instead, it appears
> we
> have just tried to stockpile young talent (which no one values as much
> as we
> do) via the draft in the hope of packaging them for an established
> number 1A
> or 2.  As the failure to land any of those guys shows, this is not a
> good
> way to build a team.  We havent appeared to place a premium on guys who
> can
> shoot or guys who can run or guys who play well in the half court or
> anything like that - instead we simply stockpile guys who maybe we can
> trade
> if they develop.  The veterans we bring in are generally brought in and
> then
> sent packing to fix prior mistakes or with an eye on the budget.  I just
> dont see much progress and outside of Oden/Durant much hope for this
> team.
>
> 2. What is "championship driven" other than a tired cliche?  Some have
> > pointed to the 10-14 record at the time of Pierce's injury, however
> others
> > point out that the team had reeled off an impressive 5 game winning
> streak
> > and that a  2 key young players (Jefferson and West) were unavailable
> for
> > most of November.  The fully constituted team pulled off the 5 game
> win
> > streak, but couldn't shake the injury bug.  I think that adds weight
> to the
> > argument of those that say the team, when healthy, isn't that bad.
>
>
> Well, most people when they follow competitive sports place a premium on
> wins and try to avoid losses.  Danny came in full of criticisms for the
> way
> things were done here and the type of team that was built and said
> changes
> were needed to make the franchise  championship driven.  If might appear
> a
> tired old cliche at this point, but that just reflects horribly on the
> person who said the Celtics would be just that under his
> administration.
> You point to optimism at 10-14 and I could just as easily say that was
> the
> easiest stretch of schedule during the season and it would have only
> gotten
> harder.  Even if we accept what you say does a season with 30-36 wins
> really
> qualify as a feather in the cap of a GM?
>
> 3.  I am not surprised that Wally was hurt and was not a advocate of
> trading
> > for him.  But his injuries are to his ankles, not his knees.  Wally is
> a
> > good player to have off the bench that's about it.  Would you rather
> have
> > Banks, Blount, and Davis back?
>
>
> I guess the question is here whether  they could have gotten a different
> deal down the road.  Blount and Davis both had very tradeable contracts
> and
> Banks was expiring.  They knew Wally, like Raef, had knee problems and
> still
> took on massive deals irregardless.  Again, this is another deal that is
> merely digging out from bad drafting/player development (Banks), a bad
> signing (Blount) and a bad dude (Davis) and taking on a contract that
> will
> hamstring a financially iffy team for years to come.
>
> 4. Who has more trade value Raef or Telfair?  I wouldn't be so hasty as
> to
> > label Telfair a bust.  He's just not being used properly by Doc
> BrainFreeze.
> >  I've said all along that he is more of a SG than a PG.  It's funny
> too, but
> > I remeber the exact same arguments being made about Chauncey Billups,
> who
> > bounced through 4 teams before landing with the Pistons.  Sometimes
> fans
> > aren't as smart as they think they are.
>
>
> I think the proper way  of framing this is who has more trade value
> Telfair
> or Roy?  Thats a pretty easy answer.  Ratliff has more trade value than
> Raef
> because his deal expires a year sooner.  Telfair isnt even 6 feet though
> he
> is listed at that.  Given that he cant really shoot and is too short to
> play
> the 2 in the NBA, I dont see how you can make that comparison.  Billups
> is 3
> or 4 inches taller and plays the point.
>
> At some point, this team has to be about winning games, making the
> playoffs,
> and contending for a championship.  Does Ainge need another four years
> for
> that?  Its time for a new start for this team in terms of a coach and GM
> for
> next season.
>
>
> On 2/8/07, asterix ninetynine <asterix_9_9 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sean, I can see why you're upset.  But your reasons don't make sense
> to me
> > and although they are passioned, they beg the following questions:
> >
> >   1.  Which veterans were available that would have helped us and how
> > would you have acquired them?
> >
> >   2. What is "championship driven" other than a tired cliche?  Some
> have
> > pointed to the 10-14 record at the time of Pierce's injury, however
> others
> > point out that the team had reeled off an impressive 5 game winning
> streak
> > and that a  2 key young players (Jefferson and West) were unavailable
> for
> > most of November.  The fully constituted team pulled off the 5 game
> win
> > streak, but couldn't shake the injury bug.  I think that adds weight
> to the
> > argument of those that say the team, when healthy, isn't that bad.
> >
> >   3.  I am not surprised that Wally was hurt and was not a advocate of
> > trading for him.  But his injuries are to his ankles, not his knees.
> Wally
> > is a good player to have off the bench that's about it.  Would you
> rather
> > have Banks, Blount, and Davis back?
> >
> >   4. Who has more trade value Raef or Telfair?  I wouldn't be so hasty
> as
> > to label Telfair a bust.  He's just not being used properly by Doc
> > BrainFreeze.  I've said all along that he is more of a SG than a PG.
> It's
> > funny too, but I remeber the exact same arguments being made about
> Chauncey
> > Billups, who bounced through 4 teams before landing with the
> > Pistons.  Sometimes fans aren't as smart as they think they are.
> >
> >   5.  Well, duh.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sean Giovanello <giovanello at gmail.com> wrote:
> >   I think a lot of blame can be pinned on Ainge for the following
> reasons:
> >
> > 1. He assembled a roster loaded with young players and continued a
> thread
> > of choosing young unproven players to fill out his roster instead of
> > veterans.
> > 2. Even with Pierce playing, this team was not good and did not appear
> > "championship driven."
> > 3. Are you surprised that Wally has been hurt? The guy has a chronic
> knee
> > condition - he is always going to be hurt. Very few GMs would trade
> for
> > him
> > with that knee and that contract and his performance in Boston has
> likely
> > reduced to that 0 GMs.
> > 4. Sebastian Telfair is not very good. Danny traded a lottery pick for
> him
> >
> > (I know we get out of a year of Raef and that Theo's contract is
> insured
> > which allows the owners to not pay out that money). He appears to be
> the
> > third PG on this team and deservedly so. I do not think he has much,
> if
> > any, trade value.
> > 5. If your are well into your rebuilding program and your team is now
> > tanking for the lottery in what was supposed to be a season of
> improvement
> > well the sands of time for you are running low.
> >
> > I think the problem for Danny is that he has had a number of years to
> turn
> > this around and...the team is now a laughingstock. It has set the
> Celtic
> > record for consecutive losses and is being mocked on ESPN for how bad
> it
> > is
> > as they countdown 9 more to go until the Celts get the longest losing
> > streak
> > in league history. Danny took over a marginal team and has not
> improved
> > it. I think that a reasonable person would say that we have generally
> been
> >
> > one of the worse teams in the league in his tenure. How long does a GM
> get
> > to turn it around?
> >
> > On 2/7/07, Ryan Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > I haven't posted in a while since the celts have not given me much
> > > reason to discuss them but as an avid AM sports radio listener, it's
> > amusing
> > > how a significant amount of callers pin all of this season's woes on
> > Danny
> > > Ainge. When the franchise player is injured as well as the
> "#2"(notice
> > the
> > > quotes) player, Wally, and the rest of the team is entirely made up
> of 1
> > or
> > > 2 year players, how can anyone really pin this season on Danny? Put
> it
> > this
> > > way, if Cleveland were to lose Lebron to injury all season or the
> Lakers
> > to
> > > lose both Kobe and Odom, how would either of those teams fare? I
> don't
> > > care who's the coach, nobody can win with a team of secondary
> players
> > > (except maybe Jerry Sloan). Do I think Danny is the right one for
> the
> > > job? No, not really but I know enough to see it was injuries and bad
> > luck
> > > that derailed this season and not so much his bizarre managerial
> moves.
> > >
> > > I keep hearing about this college kid Kevin Durant being the best
> > > college player in the last 10 years and how he should go higher than
> > Greg
> > > Odin. Anyone ever seen this guy play?
> > >
> > > R
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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