REM vs everyone else, Beatles 4 ever

[Daswer@aol.com]

Carolyn wrote:
>But OK, whatever; just to
save a big long drawn-out argument, I give to both you and Leo.
>The Who is the greatest group ever, and REM sucks.  Guess I'll
have to throw out all my REM records, including the >autographed RECKONING LP
I got back in '84.  Not to mention my Beatles records.
>Must've been kidding myself all those years...all that endless studying
>of Beatles books wasted...better pitch them too.

Nice try Carolyn, but considering that this gallant concession was tacked on
at the end of your huge argument refuting all of mine and Mark's points I'd
say you're pulling the same gag my best friend often pulls on me when we get
into a heated debate.  I make a point, then she blasts forth with a half hour
barrage in response, but as I prepare to speak, she quickly ends with, "But
we're just going in circles so I don't want to talk about it anymore."  I
didn't buy it when she did it either.  The dealmaking comes before the trial,
not after closing arguments.  

>>>They are the best group of the past 20 years

>>Ridiculous.  Countless groups are and were better:  The Police,

>They could've been another Beatles (or Who, Mark) if they hadn't imploded at
the height of their creativity.  And Sting's >solo work...what a heartbreak
that is.  But too short a life span.

I would never mention Sting's horrifying solo stuff in the same breath with
the Police's best work, and I'm not a huge Police fan, but despite their short
lifespan The Police's best songs are far superior to anything REM did even
with their life-support longevity.

>>The Pretenders

>Had two-and-a-half great albums and then fell apart.  Nope.

Two-and-a-half great albums is better than none, as in REM's case.

>>Squeeze

>Singles band.  A great one, but still.

Again, quality versus quantity.  You don't need to be an album group to be
great.  Their songs are just better.  REM never wrote anything near as good as
"Tempted".

>>Cracker, The Cure

>Ah, it all comes clear now.  We're obviously arguing from two
entirely different planets.

Cracker is closer in style, spirit and sense of humor to The Who than most
bands I can think of.  "Teen Angst" and "Get On With It" are funnier, wittier,
and have more straightforward energy than anything REM has released on radio
(possible exception, "The End of The World" which I do love)  Also, if the
gems are left on REM's albums that's their fault not mine.  Groups decide what
they put out on the air, and what REM's selling I ain't buying.
The Cure is spinning its wheels now, but they are one of the few New Wave
bands that knew how to play guitar and didn't put me in a coma with
mindnumbing synth droning.  Again, I just think their songs are better, and
not nearly as preachy as REM's stuff.

>>Peter Gabriel

>Not a band.  Damn great solo artist, tho.  

You know what I mean.  Band, solo artist; they're all musical entities.  Lets
skip the semantics and get on with the battle.

>Amazing how both his [Gabriel's] work and Genesis's improved >drastically
after he split.

I agree with the person who refuted this.  Gabriel's solo stuff is amazing
anyway (and he gave one of the best concert's I've ever seen), but the Gabriel
Genesis was a much better band than the Collins version.  Compare "The Lamb
Lies Down On Broadway" with "ABACAB".  There IS no comparison, ABACAB sounds
sophomoric against that old stuff.  Plus Gabriel's lyrics for Genesis were the
best they ever had again.  Not as popular, but a far better incarnation.
Post-Gabriel Genesis was the group all the jocks and cheerleaders chanted at
the Homecoming Game.  Big deal.

>>And lastly, when both bands were at their peak, REM never >>touched U2, the
best band of the
>>80s (their post-Joshua Tree nonsense notwithstanding).

>U2 was/is another incredibly erratic group in terms of >quality.  

Only after "Unforgettable Fire".  That and all before it is gold.

>Yes, JOSHUA TREE is fantastic, as well as BOY...

Joshua Tree is good, but is too polished for me.  BOY is a raw masterpiece.

>but everything else is a few gems surrounded by dreck, 

WAR is dreck??  UNDER A BLOOD RED SKY is dreck??  We ARE on different planets!

>or else complete dreck (their last two records).  

I grant the "dreckness" of U2's last two records (make it the last three if
you like), but aside from "The End of The World" and "Radio Free Europe", REM
has nothing BUT dreck.

>On the whole, REM's work is far better.

Ridiculous.  Their best work against U2's best is not a contest.  REM never
wrote anything as good as "I Will Follow", "New Year's Day", or "Sunday Bloody
Sunday" and U2 destroy them live.  Obnoxious baloney like "Shiny Happy People"
and pretentious nonsense like "Losing My Religion" is no substitute for good
songwriting.

>>>probably the best American group *ever*

>>God no!!  Creedence!<

>Singles band, plus short life span.

Again with the hang up on singles bands.  A good song is a good song however
it's packaged.  The same goes for the longevity hangup.  Did you know that
after 15 plus years Quiet Riot still plays live?  Does that make them better
than CCR also?  I didn't think so.  Again, it comes down to the songs.  REM
never wrote anything as good as "Fortunate Son" or "Proud Mary" or "Travelin
Band" or.... Creedence's list of 'Songs Better Than Anything By REM' is too
long and I've already used up way too much bandwidth.

>>The Allman Brothers!

>Great instrumentalists, but I can do without a group that >thinks a 30 minute
jam on one song is a good thing.

Depends on the group, depends on the song.  Allman Brothers can sometimes pull
it off.  I'd have to shoot myself if REM tried it.

>>The Byrds!

>Definitely an influence on REM, I admit, but short life span >(speaking of
the original configuration) plus highly erratic >quality.

I'm glad you admit the influence, but again with the life span thing.  You
know Mozart barely lived to see 30 and they say he got some songs out.  Robert
Johnson, the Father of the Blues (which would make him an influence on REM and
every other Rock band whether they know it or not), only recorded thirty songs
and he recorded them all in one session.  Talk about a short life span.  If
you want to know more about him ask Keith Richards; he's got a huge portrait
of him hanging in his living room.  Again:  "Turn, Turn, Turn", "Eight Miles
High".  REM doesn't stack up.

>>The Velvet Underground!  Lou Reed!

>Velvets were great (and another influence), but Reed can't >sing worth a damn
and has a lot to answer for in terms of >"journalistic" songwriting.  Besides,
half his material sucks >on his own.

That's your opinion (though it's wrong).  Besides, Stipe can sing?!?  That
nasally whine?  Ugh!  Also, for better or worse Lou Reed WAS the Velvet
Underground.  "Heroin", "Rock N Roll", "Sweet Jane" were all his, and again
REM never came anywhere near that level of songwriting, and never will.  And
his solo stuff, while erratic, still has more gems than anything by REM.

>>Not to mention Jimi Hendrix!!! (and I consider the
>>Experience mainly American since Jimi was the creative >>force).

>I will get creamed for saying this, but if you take away Jimi's
>fantastic guitar playing (and Noel and Mitch's superb work as
>well), his songwriting is pretty weak.  

Bullshit.
"The Wind Cries Mary", "Manic Depression", "Bold As Love".
Bullshit.
Besides,  to "take away Jimi's fantastic guitar playing" is more than the
equivalent of taking away all of REM's instruments, their vocal chords and
their latest video director.  In terms of significance to rock music's
evolution, one Hendrix  guitar solo is worth more than REM's entire catalog.
If REM never happened, rock music would be unaffected by the loss.  If Hendrix
never happened, rock music wouldn't BE rock music.

>Besides, he was more of a solo artist than
a band.

The name was The Jimi Hendrix Experience and it was most definitely a band.
One of the best ever.

On the Beatles you'll be happy to know that I'm a huge Beatles fan and so
won't jump into the fray about who's better.  I just read Paul McCartney's
autobiography and it's easily the best book on the Beatles I've ever read.
Okay, I've said my longwinded piece.  Now I don't ever want to discuss any of
this with you again, so you win and lets drop it.
(I kidd, I joke)
I salute you Carolyn for fighting the good fight, and yeah, I thought Jim
Carrey probably deserved it too.
-Leo