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Re: poetry



 
I must apologize in advance for the lenght of this post, but I wanted to answer as many of your comments as possible.I must also say that Mrs. Emily spelled her name DickInsOn.  I will never profess to be a good speller, but at least I get names right.

And away we go:

Symbolism is representing one thing by means of something else.  Imagery
is wording that evokes pictures in the mind of the listener.  Metaphor
is similar to symbolism, but it's supposed to be created within the work
you're dealing with.
Glad someone around here remembers high school English.
You can argue that the Acid Queen is a metaphor and not a symbol, but I
don't think you have grounds to say she's only imagery.
Well, techinically you can argue that anything in the entire world, from a song to the chair you are sitting on, is a symbol or a metaphore [sic].  However, I believe that I said "Townshend does not use MASTERFUL metaphores."  That is true, at least in my mind.  If the Acid Queen is indeed a metaphore, what is she representing?  I have to believe that if she is indeed a matephore, which she may be, she would stand for conventional youth culture, or something like that.  While that would certainly be a metaphore, or possibly even symbolism, it lacks a certain degree of mastery and precision.
Here's an excerpt from "Drowned":

There are men high up there fishing,
Haven't seen quite enough of the world,
I ain't seen a sign of my heroes,
And I'm still diving down for pearls.

I'm flowing under bridges,
Then flying through the sky,
I'm travelling down cold metal
Just a tear in baby's eye.

There's a symbolism that runs through this song, as well.

You are more than unlikely correct.  But once again he lacks true mastery.  Later on in this post, I will show you what I consider to be a masterful example of all of these things, just hang on.
Sandburg still sounds right to me, though.  He has that common quality,
the, uh, down to earth language, and all that.  I've never thought PT's
work leaned heavily toward mysticism.  It does address states of being,
if that's what you mean.  Not too many songwriters will take that on.
You are definately on to soemthing with the Sandburg thing, but I still disagree.  If you read Dickinson, you will very rarely have to consult a dictionary, and that is only because she uses words that are no longer common to our time.  This use of common language was perhaps the biggest way in which ahe differed from the common poets of her day.  And you are right on the button with the mysticism thing.  Whitman was convinced that everything in the world is just an extension of God, therefore everything is God and we are all one.  I always got the impression that Townshend had similar feelings.

>It seems that you decided that Pete Townshend was trying to emulate Whitman
>and Dickenson, and thaty he failed in doing so.  You also stated in
>previous posting, that Townshend does not use symbolism the way that
>Dickenson does - then why would you conclude that he is trying to emulate
>her??!!!!??.

When I said he was not uses symbolism in the same way, I was referring to his skill level, not his attempt to write like her.  I will address the emulation idea in a few moments, but first I must say that emulating DickInson is a good thing.  If I were a poet, I would try my damnest to write like her.  Whitman is another story...
 

>It is obvious that you have failed, making the ridiculous
>assumption that Townshend was trying to emulate anyone.

Oh, I suppose he just dreampt the idea of music.  Not to mention poetry.  If the man weren't emulating anyone, he would have to have created it all by himself, I don't think anyone is capable of spontaneously inventing two mediums, and being very good at both of them.  Once again, stay tuned to the discussion of emulation to follow.
 

However, it
is clear that you have never listened and/or read Who lyrics,
This assumption is incorrect.

I won't bother to repost the lyrics you posted, it would just take too much room, but I will comment on them.  While these are nice and they mostly are good, do not get me wrong there I think they are good lyrics, they do not measure up to the standards of true greatness.  The best rhyme he has in that group is his rhyme of  complete with streets.  This is because it is both an eye-rhyme and an inexact-rhyme.  As far as I am concerned, Quadrophenia is Townshend's greatest achievement, and not the lest because it quite well written.
 

If you want
to know what it really feels like to be in that situation - to have the
urge to write, but to hit obsticles, to get frustrated, and ultimately to
overcome - listen to "Guitar and Pen" on Who Are You (remember LISTEN - not
read).  I do not know if Emily wrote a quaint poem about these emotions,
but if she did, I would bet an infinite amount of cash that it cannot stand
up to song.
  As a matter of fact, Mrs. DicInson did write a few dozen poems about such subjects.  I will include the first part of one of these:  "This was a poet - It is That/ Distills amazing sense/ From ordinary Meanings-/ And Attar so immense"  #448  I will first say that this poem has a very simple rhyme scheme, but that is not the beauty of this poem (keep in mind that is considerably longer).  These lines tell the reader that the speaker is a failure of a poet.  She is talking about not being able to squeeze the sweet necter (attar) out of the words.  In a sense she is saying that in order to be a poet, one must experience certain failures first, and then overcome these by learning the true secrets of words.
 
you make Dickenson sound like a real quack.  If she didn't intend for
anyone to read her works, why did she write them down at all?
 That is because she was a  real quack.  She suffered from several mental disorders.  No one is sure why she wrote poetry, my opion is that she used it to escape from the life that she hated so much.  In the end no one will ever know her motivations, but that is just one more reason to try and unlock the secrets held in her poems.
 
Now THAT is silly. Comparing PT's work to any of his contemporaries and
you'll find him among if not the top of the heap.
  Absolutely true, I do not dispute this for a second.  However, I was comparing him to other poets, including his contemporaries.  If just said that if he were judged by all those who came before him, and think that that is the only fair way to judge a poet, he would be somewhere near the middle.
 
he killed upwards of 6 million people. THAT is too damned successful!
Actually it closer to 100 million.  And I agree that it was TOO successful, but still a failure.
Dickinson might be compared to Dylan...although you don't dare,
because you already KNOW you'll lose on that one...
I would happily argue this one, if I knew anything about Dylan.
Hey, it's not difficult for me. She doesn't do a thing for me, so her work
becomes irrelevant to my life...whereas Townshend's work is rather
universal,
Don't say that anything in our culture is universal.  Just because a lot of people you know know of Townshend's music, universality is in way the truth.  Every student in English will read Dickinson, only those who listen to classic radio will hear Townshend.
Rock music, on the other hand, has changed society as a whole.
Obviously.
How?
Hate to tell you, but there are FAR MORE people affected by Rock music
than poetry.
I never suggested otherwise, because you are right.  I do think is a shame, however.
It takes guts, but you can do it if you try. We'll
help; consider us your support system.
I'm perfectly happy with my poetry, and music.  When I want to hear a good song, I put on The Who, when I want to read good poetry I read Dickinson.
Tell me this: was Dickinson able to work with different forms, as Townshend clearly
is? Or was she ONLY able to do the one?
Whoops. Got you again! Pete wins, hands down.
As I said before, she was not a musician.  But she stands so far above Townshend's words, that he has to look up to see her ankles.
 
Despite the fact he never mentioned either as an influence. Here, I think,
we see that you are perhaps a bit TOO wrapped up in their work...life has
many facets, you know. Not everything is poetry.
Here is will I get into that aforementioned discussion of emulation.  My theory of literary emulation has absolutely nothing to do with acknowledgement.  In fact, it has little to do with knowledge of emulation.  I believe that Townshend emulated these, and other, poets unconsiously.  To demonstrate this I will give you an unrelated example.  Almost every book you have read that was written in this century, will have one major thing in common.  The characters in modern literature talk the way normal people do.  This is a convention that Mark Twain created in his book The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.  Few modern authors claim Twain as inspiration, but he clearly is.

I am no more wrapped up in Dickinson than you are in Townshend.  Not everything is rock 'n roll, you know.
 

she was unable to entertain as well?
 I said she never TRIED to entertain.  There is a difference.
 
I'll bet McGoo never considered that there might be a spiritual
message in QUAD.
Another poor assumption.
 
If Pete is average, where does a HUMP like you fit in?
I am not a poet; therefore, I do not fit in at all.  And I would just like to take this oppurtunity to tell you that I think it is sad you have to degenerate to name calling.  If you are unable to think of a rebutal to my argument, just stay out.  There is no need for you to be calling me names, I have been called worse things by better people.
I DO wonder, though, why you DTATDTMT on a Who list.  As
opposed to, say, praising Dickinson and smearing Townshend on a Dickinson
list.
Conformity is no fun.
I feel that it takes more skill to write poetry with pre-existing words,
rather than inventing new ones to suit one's purpose.
 I was referring to existing words.  As far as I know, she never made up a word, geniuses do not have to do that.  What I did say is that she invented RHYMES, a very different thing.  She would also invert syntax to get a rhyme, if she needed to.
 
>"'Faith' is a fine invention/ When Gentlemen can see-/ But Microscopes are
>prudent/ In an Emergency."  #185
 
Oh, my GOD!  Is THIS an example of genius of the written word???
 I do not recall saying that is was.  It was just a quote that has a similar meaning to "I'm Free."  But I am guessing you didn't bother to try and figure it out, automatically dismissing it as inferior.  But that is just a guess...
 
faith IS a FINE inVENtion
duh DUM duh DUM duh DUM
duh DUM duh DUM duh DUM
in AN eMERgenCY

This is doggerel, WAY below anything The Who ever recorded.  Tell me you're
kidding.  YOU wrote this, right...not Dickinson??
I don't even think further comment is necessary, but if it is I will be happy to explain the meaning of this poem to you, seeing as you obviously missed it.  I will also say it is only an average Dickinson poem.
But when you have EARNED a PhD, you don't have to, because you know
better.
I did NOT spend six years in graduate school to have it all dismissed in one sentence by you.  For your information, I EARNED my Ph. D. three years ago, hence the reason I said I HAVE a Ph. D.  Don't forget what those tenses mean.

I will now present you all with an example of what I think is masterful use of language:

"In Winter in my Room
I came upon a Worm-
Pink, lank and warm-
But as he was a worm
And worms presume
Not quite with him at home-
Secured him by a string
To something neighboring
And went along.

A trifle afterward
A thing occurred I'd not believe it if I heard
But state with creeping blood-
A snake with mottles rare
Surveyed my chamber floor
In feature as the worm before
But ringed with power-
The very string with which
I tied him - too
When he was mean and new
That string was there-

I shrank - "How fair you are"!
Propitiation's claw-
"Afraid," he hissed
"Of me"?
"No cordiality" -
He fathomed me-
Then to a Rhythm Slim
Secreted in his Form
As Patterns swim
Projected him.

That time I flew
Both eyes his way
Lest he pursue
Nor ever ceased to run
Till in a distant Town
Towns on from mine
I set me down
This was a dream.

-Dickinson # 1670

OK, all you scholars out there, this poem has got it all.  There are six different types of rhymes.  Symbolism, metaphores and imagery.

For starters the worm, snake and string are highly symbolic.
The entire poem is a metaphore that describes one part of her hard to understand life.
And the imagery should be fairly obvious.

I trust that since you are all so good at analizing Who songs, you can handle this poem too.  But I must warn you, it is far deeper than any Townshend song I have ever heard.
Have Fun!

-McGoo