Re: Pete IS the superior

["Mark R. Leaman" <mleaman@sccoast.net>]

> Isn't the point of these discussion groups is to share information,

Greg:

Indeed, what other reason would they exist??? If we all agreed on
everything, this would be a damned empty list, consisting mainly of notes
like:

Note 1: The Who are the greatest Rock band ever to walk the face of the
Earth.

Note 2: Yeah, you're right.

Note 3: I agree!

Note 4: Me too, me too!

> I refuse to believe things that I am told to believe.

McGoo:

You believe what you want to believe, but you don't have to live like a
refugee.

> that Mr. Townshend is anything more than an average Joe with an above
average
> talent for writing.

Now THAT is silly. Comparing PT's work to any of his contemporaries and
you'll find him among if not the top of the heap. Steve Miller is an
average Joe. Ozzy Osbourne. Whoever wrote the songs for Loverboy. Steve
Perry. And so on.

> Just had to say here that Hitler was indeed a failure

No, he killed upwards of 6 million people. THAT is too damned successful!

> That is just silly.  I don't know what else to say; it is just absurd for
you
> to accuse me of this.

If it's silly, then so is saying Townshend is an "average Joe." It simply
comes down to you not "getting it." However, as most of the rest of us
know, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not putting you down, just
pointing out that your comments indicate clearly that you've not penetrated
the surface of Pete's work.

> Here you are half-right.  Townshend is indeed a more DIVERSE writer.

I am completely right. As with Dylan being a better lyricist but an
inferior musicwriter, Townshend comes off as the superior songwriter on the
whole. Dickinson might be compared to Dylan...although you don't dare,
because you already KNOW you'll lose on that one...and I can easily compare
Pete to Dylan.

> to be sung).  However, Dickinson was a genius with words, where as
Townshend
> was a little above average with them.  I will try to explain this.

You were unsuccessful. Just because PT works in a different way in no way
"proves" or explains how he is inferior. It would appear that you are
setting the standard by her work, and that's not a balanced or fair method.
You need perspective.

> very difficult to suggest that he even comes close to her level of genius
with

Hey, it's not difficult for me. She doesn't do a thing for me, so her work
becomes irrelevant to my life...whereas Townshend's work is rather
universal, especially QUAD, therefore he is the superior. He speaks to more
people's lives.

> I find it hard to believe that Townshend's
> musical ability levels him out, let alone puts him ahead, of Dickinson.

We all have our faults. Work on it; sooner or later you can do it if you
really try.

> Here you are very correct.  However, Whitman ignored and threw out ALL
the
> conventions of his day.

I have to say that I am not setting the standard by Dickinson, so this
means little to anyone who is not a poetry fan. A very small segment of
society. Rock music, on the other hand, has changed society as a whole.
Obviously.

> common language free verse.  While Townshend did change things, they were
by no
> means even close to as dramtic as the changes Whitman made.

HA! Hate to tell you, but there are FAR MORE people affected by Rock music
than poetry.

> He makes me puke almost as quickly as Faulkner.

But you never explained what that means!

> I'm sorry you have such a poor view of the highest form of non-visual
art.  I
> truly am.

Oh, but I don't. I merely disagree with you on what that form is, because
to me it's OBVIOUSLY music. And poetry doesn't make me sick, just bores me.

> "'Faith' is a fine invention/ When Gentlemen can see-/ But Microscopes
are
> prudent/ In an Emergency."  #185

Cute but hardly "High Art." Townshend has done better while tripping on
acid. For instance:

"You take away the breath I was keeping for sunrise/You appear and the
morning looks drab in my eyes." and "I fear this will go on my life
through/Each day spent in an echoed vision of you..."

> I have never been accused of lacking balls before.  Keep in mind I'm the
one
> who started this argument, and it's me against everyone else.

It was a humorous way of telling you that it's OK to throw out convention
(that is: touting traditional as the "as any cultured person should") and
be honest. That's all. It takes guts, but you can do it if you try. We'll
help; consider us your support system.

> I was comparing his skill level.

According to your own personal scale. See, I'm NOT using PT as the
automatic top, which means MY argument is more balanced and therefore more
correct.

> near the end if it is intended to be a metaphore for something.  By the
end of
> a story, it is too late to start drawing philosophical connections.

Obviously you have yet to penetrate the many levels of Townshend's work.
TOMMY is not only about the way society treat those who dare to challenge
it, but also a mirror of the society in the `60's AND a very spiritual
message as well. QUAD is extremely multi-leveled (as is the music, and the
marriage of the two is further proof of PT's genius)...explaining that
would be two or three entire digests worth of material in itself. The same
is true of WN, whereas WBN is a more down-to-Earth expression. Tell me
this: was Dickinson able to work with different forms, as Townshend clearly
is? Or was she ONLY able to do the one?
Whoops. Got you again! Pete wins, hands down.

> styles.  I always felt that Townshend tried to write like a combination
of
> Whitman and Dickinson.

Despite the fact he never mentioned either as an influence. Here, I think,
we see that you are perhaps a bit TOO wrapped up in their work...life has
many facets, you know. Not everything is poetry.

> anonymously, in this time.  She NEVER considered herself an entertainer,
and it
> is not fair for us to think of her that way either.

IOW, she not only couldn't compose music...she was unable to entertain as
well? Well well well...I believe that is strike three; others may want to
confirm this.

> I feel bad for anyone that has to analyze The Who.  The point is missed
if
> "analysis" is required.

Joe:

I must disagree with you here. While it's true the music can be appreciated
as is, further investigation only proves to enhance the experience (unless
we're talking about Kansas or someone like that, of course). As I hope
McGoo will now dedicate himself to doing...

> alcohol addiction, gaming adiction, etc.

Keets:

And sex. "Watch his body rise..."

> say "I'm like a pearl diver," it's simile.  If you say "I am water," 
> then it's a metaphor--classic, even.

Yes, and let us not forget that water is a frequent "player" in spiritual
work. I'll bet McGoo never considered that there might be a spiritual
message in QUAD. It's not obvious, but there is a spiritual message in most
of PT's work from 1967 on. Either obvious or subtlely intertwined.