Re: My Generation/Who vs Zep/Pagey/Brainwashed

[Ian Derby <iderby19@us.net>]

> Actually, I haven't heard that radio show...radio not being that impressive
> down here, except for Stern in the morning.
> And I still am unshaken in my belief that MG was the first true Rock song.

Then you weren't listening to Stern two weeks ago (I thought my hint 
would give it away).  Someone called in from VA (not me, I don't have a 
southern accent), claiming to have talked to dead rock stars through his 
Oujia board.  He said that heaven has 10 levels and that Hendrix was 
stuck on level #3.  He claimed to have helped Jimi obtain #4 status.  But 
it was a shot in the dark stab at humor.

> 
> It doesn't matter what Ragtime's influences are (not in this discussion,
> anyway) or whether it was acceptable to whites, the point is that it was
> Jazz and it was around at that time. No one said it had to be by blacks
> only, either. We're talking about when Jazz was documented as opposed to the
> Blues.

Well, you were telling me that Ragtime was the most published of all 
black music before 1940(?).  I think you were trying to tell me that 
since Ragtime was more prominent commercially that it was around before 
the blues, or the blues as we know it?? The author you quoted was claiming 
"black" music.  I was only trying to explain that ragtime wasn't purely 
influential from it's own culture.  However, the early blues (you call it 
something else) is directly from black culture.  
As for the jazz vs blues argument I don't really want to go in circles anymore
because I know from audio evidence that the blues was around LONG before jazz
If you're trying to break it down into another name like spirituals, fine.  
But it's still considered the blues.  



> Yeah, Elvis was RnR. No argument there.
> However, one can't say that because Jazz grew and changed that Ragtime
> wasn't Jazz...it was/is. And yes, the phrase "influencial in the Blues"
> implies that it is NOT Blues, but influencial.
> Here's another quote for you from the same book:

Mark, are you going to tell me that you can't say "Charlie Parker's music 
was influencial for jazz" and claim that jazz didn't exist before Parker?

> 
> "Classic Blues, the form which followed primitive Blues, was the accultured
> Blues form. It was still not urban Blues in the commerical sense, but (Note:
> pay attention to this part, Ian) it did to begin to solidify the style and
> move toward a standard Blues form."
> 
> Now, since we know that the early forms of Blues didn't have "a standard
> Blues style" (which is what I've been saying for some time), then it's NOT
> the form we were talking about in regard to the Blues form of the early
> `60s...the timeperiod we were talking about.

You are going by an author who has defined in his own mind what the blues 
is.  Think of it in rock, Berry, Holly, etc is prehistoric rock/Who, 
Beatles, Stones LZ etc is classic rock aka "the golden age".  What you 
call the blues is the golden age, an advanced blues, you can make the 
claim for be-bop in jazz.  The standard blues form was in place by the 
time Bessie Smith sang "St. Louis Blues", count the bars!  It's 12 bar blues.

If this author thinks of the blues as Albert King and his electric 
guitar, fine.  However it existed LONG before that.  Just like jazz 
existed before Miles.



> 
> >But you were talking about "commercial" a few posts back.  I was trying 
> >to identify (thanks to historical perspective) true origins.  
> 
> It was commercial according to the standard of the time, when radio was the
> main source of music for the vast majority.
>

Well as I said, thanks to looking back we can change those aspects.  

> I don't think that Marsh, just because he has details about The Who, is what
> I'd consider a reliable source for the definition of Blues. He makes a few
> similar musical mistakes in that book, and in Fortunate Son. Just as he
> contridicts himself in the next sentence by saying it sounds like the "Heavy
> Metal LAL version." 

My point was that Marsh didn't need a musical background (just like you) 
but he does to realize the gut instinct on his opinion.  Where Marsh screws 
up is when he's trying to write something clever or appealing to the eye.  His 
WSO notes are appaling (even though his opinion of the album is a "where 
have you been" feeling).