Re: My Generation/Who vs Zep/Pagey/Brainwashed

[Ian Derby <iderby19@us.net>]

> Knowledge is not an opinion, it is a culmination of facts.
> My opinion doesn't enter into it. MG broke the chokehold Berry/Blues had on
> RnR, as I stated. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. It's easy to see by
> comparing the music before and after MG.

Obviously it's not easy if people aside from myself disagree with you on 
this list.  Instead of saying "because it is" we would like to know how 
and why.  If what you claim is really true, then this is real discovery.

> 
> I may not be able to pinpoint the exact song that was the first Jazz, just
> like I couldn't with Blues, but I do know that Jazz was around in at least
> the late 1800s, whereas by your own admission Blues was the early 1900s.
> Your claim is that Smith's song was Blues borrowing from Jazz. Is it not
> just as likely the other way around? Or, better yet from my standpoint, Jazz
> developing into Blues?

Are you sitting in your Toyota 4X4 with Helen Hunt escaping a tornado?  
You just totally paraphrased my statements backwards.  I seem to remember 
stating that the blues is documented as early as 1890, yet any feelings 
of jazz was after 1920.  It would be totally impossible for jazz to 
exsist before the turn of the century since ragtime wasn't prominent 
until after 1900.  Are you really that confused with the musical styles?  
Bessie Smith's song(s) are so strongly blues it would be impossible to 
dismiss it.  It's certainly not jazz by any means.  But if you call 
Chicago Blues jazz, then maybe I can see why you would stand by this.


> 
> >But you said that jazz influenced the blues moreso than the other way 
> >around, in fact you asked me to provide more research for this fact.  
> >It's here.  I can provide it in it's total context if you wish.  
> 
> That's quite all right. I don't want to tax the patience of the Digest
> members to the point of quoting entire sections of books. Dueling Resources.
> What I said was that Jazz was around first, and Blues IN THEIR PRESENT FORM,
> and that means changed from the Spirituals and Folk that came before them,
> arose out of that. Blues came into their popularity via Jazz bands, too.
> Robert Johnson etc. were virtually unknown in their time.

Since when was the blues considered popular, until the mid 60's?  It 
would be a serious mistake to mark changes by recording contracts and 
record companies instead of true sources, such as front porches in the 
deep south.  Why does Robert Johnson being unknown matter today?  He 
existed and history provides that fact.  Therefore he is a pioneer.  He 
provides links to why the blues existed before jazz.  What you call BLUES 
is me calling free jazz simply jazz.  You're looking at blues in it's 
present form.  I'm looking at jazz as LA and his hot five, I'm using the 
same links of influence with this jazz argument as I claim MG to be built 
on blues, you obviously see it differently.  And of 
course, why question the patience of this list when you LOVE to write 100 
line posts in response?   


> Well, I hate to keep going over the same thing again, time after time. We
> had already gotten past that (I thought). I still say that "Talkin'..." is a
> lot closer to Blues than "Talkin' `bout my generation," and that it makes a
> difference. Did you want me to repeat it?
> Oh Townshend was quoted, eh? This is the same Townshend who didn't know
> there were two different vocal versions of Eyesight To The Blind, right? The
> same Townshend that is always so consistent with his statements and views?
> Ian...
> 
> Just so you can rest easy about it, I just dug out my demo of MG (from Max
> R&B) and listened to it. It does not sound like Blues, although it does have
> a looseness not found in the Who version. Overall, it sounds a lot like the
> Who version. I'm sure you know that Pete did TWO demos of the song...and
> this is the second. I didn't need to tell you that, right? 

Of course, but since you claim to never hear the first, how do you know 
if his first demo wasn't similar?  Pete never claimed to say "second 
demo" or "I made some serious changes on the demo I submitted to the 
Who".  What you claim for my speculation can be easily said for yours.  I 
take Pete's quotes as fact, and you may not hear it in it's "looseness" 
but to me it does sound a song played in the Jimmy Reed style.  


> Speaking of ignoring...where's that Blues song that predicts MG?

Ok Mark, you got me.  Just like you can't predict the blues song for 
YRGM.  We weren't talking about the Gallagher brothers here, we are 
talking about someone who can write without blatantly lifting from 
others?  Or are you questioning Pete's writing ability?  There are RnR 
songs BEFORE MG where you can't predict the song, for that I can provide 
definate proof.  Why would you expect MG to be simplified.  I'm just 
hearing things between the lines.