Improv rock

From: Biggsk@aol.com
>>>
Let's take a good look at this quote from one poster here:

<< And anyone who thinks Zeppelin couldn't improvise hasn't heard any   
live
 Zeppelin.  These guys carried the banner of improvisational rock for
 years.
<<<
Well, that was mine, so I guess I should respond (what the hell, it's a   
slow day at work...)

>>>
Actually, let's really give credit where credit is due as to who started   
the
improvisational rock thing in live performances - they were called   
"rave-ups"
and the Yardbirds were the band that broke outside the mold before ANY   
other
band - British or American - did it.  This is where Page stole the idea   
from
(like he stole blues licks from black blues guys and didn't give them   
credit
 - - see the law suit Zeppelin lost a few years ago for proof and the   
Circus
Magazine article in 1972 where Plant and Page where called on this.), and
Zeppelin could not do it as well because they weren't as R & B oriented   
as
the Yardbirds were.
<<<
Tell me, why does Page get so much crap for stealing blues riffs but no   
one takes Clapton or Richards or Gary Moore or Peter Green or (insert   
your favorite modern blues-based guitarist here) to the wall for it?   
 Page didn't do anything anybody else didn't do, and he and Plant were   
never secretive about the fact that they were doing it in the beginning.   
 And I'll argue that that tendency diminished rapidly with each   
successive album.  As for the Yardbirds, Page *was* a member of the   
Yardbirds!  I'd hardly call it "stealing" if it comes from your own band.

If Zeppelin stole it from the Yardbirds, then Cream and a hundred other   
bands are 'guilty' as well.  I prefer to look at it as a natural   
evolution of performance rock.  Zep took it a step (or six) further.  In   
one particular direction.  The Who took it a couple leaps further.  In   
another direction.

>>>
In addition, the Yardbirds could swing where Zeppelin NEVER could.
<<<
Well, jeez, what the hell is that supposed to mean?  Count Basie could   
swing, but I fear he might've fallen a little short of the idea if he   
took on 'Trampled Under Foot.'

>>>
Bonham deteriorated as a drummer the older he got - he was much more open   
in style
on the first couple LP's as well as in live performance (much more   
Keith-like
if you will) and then became more backbeat and bombastic as he got older   
and
the band's career got on.
<<<
Show me a drummer from the same time period who didn't (Bill Bruford and   
Charlie Watts excluded).

>>>
One other thing Zeppelin did not do well live was fill in the
holes in the sound whenever Page went into his solos.  In a three piece   
band
the drummer and bass player are supposed to fill in the sound gaps by
overcompensating - Zeppelin did not do this very well.  For proof just   
listen
to "The Song Remains The Same" for sound holes that you can sail a   
battleship
through, whereas on "Live At Leeds" John and Keith overplay to fill in.
 Cream was probably the best at this concept however and the Jimi Hendrix
Experience did very well at it too.
<<<
Mark stated that there are plenty of "unofficial" releases that prove you   
wrong, and I'll add that TSRTS was recorded on one night at the end of a   
long tour.  Leeds was magical in that the performance and sound and   
chemistry all coincided to produce the single greatest live recording   
ever, but even Leeds had a song or two from another show.  I never said   
that TSRTS was as good (or even close) to Leeds.  Just that Zeppelin live   
was the definition of Improvisational Performance Rock for years.

As for filling in holes, what you refer to as 'holes' I call 'economy,'   
and Moon/Entwistle's personal styles lend themselves to this task much   
more than Jones/Bonham's.  Zep was much more a guitar showcase band than   
the Who (from inception).  With that in mind, the task of the drums/bass   
is not to overcompensate, but to step back a bit.  The Who had three   
instrumental maniacs and a singer, as opposed to a guitarist, singer and   
'rhythm section.'

>>>
One final note here as far as improvisational rock - the Allman Brothers   
Band
blew Zeppelin away in that arena as well.  I will listen to "Live At the
Fillmore East"  ten times more than "Song Remains the Same" anyday.
<<<
Personal preference.  I can listen to about 30 minutes of Allman's (with   
Brother Greg only, please) before I get sleepy.

Sorry for the non-Who content, folks, but I'll defend Zep to my deathbed.   
 I feel that the Who and Zep shouldn't be compared on any level because   
they had totally different approaches and intents, and both succeeded   
magnificently.

OK,
KLW

ps: everybody have a nice 4th of July!  See you all Monday!