Re: Reply to the defense of Walker vs. Shareef.

[Cecil <cecil@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

----- Original Message -----
From: <GuyClinch@AOL.com>
To: <Celtics@igtc.com>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 10:18 AM
Subject: Reply to the defense of Walker vs. Shareef.


> Hello,
>
> >
> > I suppose if you want to talk from a statistical point, SAR's stats
would
> > look good.  But in many games I saw, he disappeared in the end.  One
would
> > suspect, if he were as good as you claim, that with the game on the
line,
> > he
> > would be the first option for the shot.  That was not the case.  I saw
> > Jason
> > Terry and Glen Robinson used as the first two options.
>
> Robert Horry has been known to take the last shot with the game on the
line..
> Does that make him better then Shaq? Perhaps if Twan was a more efficent
> scorer the game wouldn't be on the line..now would it?
>

* I guess you missed the words "first two options".  I hardly think Horry is
the first or second option for the Lakers when their starters are on the
court.

> You point to a
> >
> > better 3 pt percentage.  Statistically you're right.  But, as you know,
> > that
> > does not mean SAR is a better 3 pt shooter.  Do you think he is?
>
> Hmm he very well might be as good a three point shooter. I saw Twan in the
> contest there..and he wasn't very good. I really don't know...but point is
HE
> KNOWS that he isn't a great three point shooter so he doesn't take them.
He
> knows his role is to get rebounds and block shots.  It's called being a
team
> player. Like I said before Battie might shoot threes as well as Twan.. but
he
> doesnt!
>
* And Michael Jordan "might" decide to unretire again.  The point has been
made repeatedly that Toine did what he was asked to do by his coach.  Does
anyone deny that Obie encouraged him and the rest of the team to shoot the
3?  To hint that he is not a team player because of shooting the 3 is like
accusing PP of the same thing.  Do you call him a selfish player for
shooting the 3?  I don't.

> >
> > As for versatility, it is not a weakness but a strength that many other
> > coaches relish in their players.  Toine passes the ball well and
rebounds
> > well when he is in position to do so.  If you want to question the
> > multitude
> > of times that he may not be in good rebounding position as a result of
the
> > 3
> > point shot, I would not even question it.  But to downplay the
importance
> > of
> > versatility, especially when our inside players were not a real
strength,
> > is
> > downright crazy.  Walker played all the front court positions at one
time
> > or
> > another.  That is an asset which few NBAers possess.
>
> I recognize how versatility can be a strength...It doesn't outweigh the
> importance of things like efficent scoring, rebounding and shot blocking
for
> a PF. Tim Duncan isn't half the dribbler Twan is. Who cares though?
>
> You champion versatility and talent over real world on the court
performance.
> I do not. What is more important in your evaluation of a player? At some
> point a HUGE difference in scoring efficency outweigh
versatility..especially
> when you factor in that Twan's versatility does not always benefit a team.
> Just because you CAN doesn't mean you should....
>
* I champion no such thing.  I just believe that versatility is an asset
which can give a team an advantage in situations.  When a team performs as
woefully as Atlanta has for the recent past, I couldn't care less about the
efficiency of a player who has not proven to be one of his teams top
options.  I champion hard work and defense.

> >
> > By the way, is there a reason you didn't cite steals and assists?  How
does
> > a shotblocker help a PFs rebounding stats?  Because the ability to alter
> > the
> > shot allows for more rebounds period.  It is to someone's benefit, most
> > normally the PF since he would be closer to the basket to reap the
rewards.
>
>
> I get your point now - a shot blocker spikes the front lines rebounding
> stats. I don't buy it though..

*I'm not surprised :-)
>
> The shot blocker often gathers many rebounds on his own.  See Ben Wallace
for
> example... So in my view that might actually deflate a guys rebounding
> numbers. If you want to get into speculative statistics I could claim that
> Walker's poor shooting percentage spikes his own rebound numbers. Or that
> having Glen Robinson on your front line would deflate SAR's because Glen
is
> such a lousy defender it more then negates Ratliff's contributions.
Dubious?
> Maybe..

*Definitely.

but so is the claim that SAR rebounds better then Walker only because
> of Ratliff, IMHO.

*Never claimed that.  This is like me accusing you of saying that SAR is a
better 3 point shooter than Walker.  You never said that and I am not
putting words in your mouth to that effect.


>
> MANY PF are better rebounders then Twan. Even SAR who is merely a top ten
PF
> is better then Twan. I do agree that Twan is a good rebounder when he is
in
> the area though. So is SAR though. Walker has good hands and positons
> well..but SAR can out jump him.

*Wilt could outjump Russell.  Who was the better rebounder?
>
> >
> > You have no evidence that the Celts would win as many games with SAR.
Just
> > you opinion.  You would trade Walker for SAR and have who bring the ball
up
> > against pressure?  J.R.?  Delk? PP?  Walker helps out in that regard,
ALOT.
> > Sure he turns it over from time to time, but so does Paul.
>
> Most teams can survive without a ball handling PF.
> Kenny with his slick dribbling used to defy pressure all by himself last
> year.
> Certainly Twan is a plus in that situation..but again does it really
outwiegh
> the fact that he is lousy at the big three features of a PF. He doesn't
score
> efficently, he doesnt rebound that well and he can't block shots. You saw
the
> Nets series...didn't you? K-Mart is like the Anti-Twan.
>
When a team has the ball handling weaknesses which we had this season, those
skills were helpful, no?  I would agree with you if Toine had been
encouraged to play the natural PF position.  But he wasn't.  Now, whose
fault was it?  Some of you say Obie acquiesced to Toines whims not wanting
to challenge his authority.  Perhaps, perhaps not.  But the coach said in
public that this is what he wanted the player to do.

> And umm of course I have no "evidence" that SAR would help us win more
games
> then Twan. I also have no evidence that Tim Duncan would win more games
for
> us then Mark Blount.

* I do.

But if SAR is better then Twan it stands to reason that
> we would.

*Depends on the system employed by the team and the coaches.

>
> Keep in mind...Twan is a staggeringly inefficent scorer. Many times he
shoots
> instead of PP or TB or T. Buckets and it hurts the team. Another PF would
> provide us efficent scoring, and IMHO help the cause tremendously.
Efficent
> scoring and defense wins championships. Look at the Laker..and look at the
> spurs.. I rest my case. Twan provides neither efficent scoring or defense
out
> of position you should get it from. That hurts this team.
>
*If you say so.

> >
> > A motivated SAR, you say?  Why must he have additional motivation?
> >
> > Cecil
> >
>
> OB/Harter are good motivators. In evaluating a player who is coming to the
> Celtics I do think we should look at what the COULD contribute on
> defense..now what they do. Defense is kinda a team thing. Your not going
to
> hustle to cover someone if your teammate is not. It ticks guys off who
have
> to work hard "all by themselves".
>
*Yeah, the teammate who would normally hustle will stand there and watch the
opponent score and say oh well?  Not likely.

> Anyway I think we can agree to disagree..
> You favour versatility (even if used to the detriment of the team) and
> untapped talent over efficent scoring, athleticism, defense and
rebounding.

*There you go again.
I
> would take the Brand's and SAR of the world in a heartbeat. Twan is a
great
> guy IMHO and can be great fun to watch but winning is where it's at. I
hate
> Shaq's game, but I would gladly have him on my team. Efficent scoring +
> defense = championship. Nuff said.
>
*I do not personally think Shaq is a strong defender.  I think he gets away
with murder quite honestly, both offensively and defensively.

> Besides I am with you about Twan in a way. I like the guy..I would be sad
to
> see him go. I would love for the Celts to win with people they drafted.
> .
*Interesting.  I would not have drawn that conclusion.

Cecil