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Re: The man-to-man myth
Wonderful analysis of the Celtics defense, Tammo.
I think it was my reply to Snoopy's recap of the Toronto game that got
him back to the tape, to watch Pierce's defense in that game.
My observation was that he was defending flat footed and
lethargically, while the rest of the team was up on their toes, waving
their arms, moving quickly, in and out, trying to shut down the Raptors.
Paul was so obviously out of whack and sluggish, that even Snoopy
noted it in a follow up post. We can all accept the possibility that
Paul's position, clogging the lane, is by design, but what I can't
accept is the lack of effort he displayed that night.
Where I'm living, I can't get FOXNE, or a dish, so I get to see very
few games and I can't say whether this is a trend or not, only that in
that game, he just didn't have any fire, on the defensive end.
JB
Unchain My Heart !
On Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 10:40 AM, Tammo29@AOL.com wrote:
> I sent this e-mail to Snoopy while the list was down. I think it
> provides
> a lot of information on the Celtics defense that some people may not
> be aware
> of.
> The gist being you cannot judge this team on defense using man to man
> principles because despite O'Brien's constant claims to not playing a
> zone,
> anytime you play a space rather than a man you are in fact playing a
> zone.
>
> It was funny to me to hear Tommy Heinsohn use almost the exact words
> I
> wrote on Monday on the Celtics replay yesterday. "The Celtics players
> are
> responsible for an area on the floor in this defense until their
> player gets
> the ball and then they play the man."
>
> And then O'Brien was quoted in today's paper again reinforcing what I
> had
> written on Monday afternoon.
>
> ''We quantify hustle stats,'' said O'Brien, ''then we talk about the
> phases
> of the game that allow you to have success defensively, namely keeping
> the
> ball from being penetrated to the middle, keeping the ball out of the
> very
> low space by fronting it [the low post], challenging 45 percent of
> opponent's
> shots. These are areas where the statistics don't lie.''When the guys
> are
> doing that, you know that you are hustling at a level that has been
> proven
> over many, many years of NBA basketball. You're playing at a standard
> of
> excellence that is enough to make you an elite team.''
>
>
>
> Something else I'd like to add....I cannot remember a single opponent
> getting
> more open looks at the basket than Pat Garitty got the other night.
> I'm
> talking wide open, no defender anywhere in sight. Thank goodness he
> was off
> most of the night. Guess who's man that was? Antoine's.
> This is no knock on Antoine's defense. I think he has played
> marvelously.
> He has come off his man and disrupted the opponents flow with steals,
> switches, and great blitzes on the pick and roll. But it does point
> out that
> it is very difficult to play defense on a three point shooter in this
> defensive scheme. It's asking a lot to play your space, limit
> penetration,
> run through multiple screens, be ready to help on the blocks, and
> still be
> able to get a hand in the face of a three point shooter when the ball
> is
> reversed. Now try doing that for 40 minutes. There will be times
> when they
> just can't get to him quickly enough. All you can ask is that they
> try.
> If they stand there with their hands at their side and just give up
> the shot
> you have a beef. Very few times have a seen that happen this year.
>
>
> Snoopy,
> What you must remember about this defense is that the Celtics don't
> play a
> straight up man to man.
> O'Brien doesn't like to call it a zone, but the fact remains since all
> players are responsible for not only their man, but a particular space
> according to where their man is on the floor and who they are
> guarding, it's
> hard not to call it a zone.
> I pointed out this particular defensive philosophy during preseason
> last
> year. At the time I called it a match-up zone. O'Brien vehemently
> denied
> it, but when the creator of the matchup zone says it's a match up
> zone...well.
>
> Watch the players defending away from the ball on the weak side. They
> always play on the edge of the paint. The reason for this is simple.
> No
> lay-ups.
> The Celtics force their opponents to rotate the ball and shoot the
> outside
> jumper.
> When they play against teams with big strong inside players, they will
> always
> have a defender fronting and a defender waiting in the wings to pounce
> if the
> opponents go over the top, contesting their shot or making them pass
> back
> out. When the play is ball side the second defender is usually also
> ball
> side. When the opponents rotate the ball the primary defender from
> the
> opposite side must rotate to the ball side leaving his man to the
> opposite
> wing defender to now front, leaving a corner shooter open. If the
> opponent
> rotates again, or makes a skip pass, the wing defender must leave the
> man he
> is fronting (not his man) and make a dash to try to get a hand in the
> face of
> the corner shooter (which is his man).
> Some teams have taken to using a pick and not allowing the defender to
> recover, but that's another subject all together.
>
> That is why the Celtics opponents shot more three pointers than any
> other
> team in the league last season. That is also why the Celtics were
> excellent
> in keeping their opponents out of the paint. I believe they were
> something
> like third in the league.
> It's not because our interior defenders are so strong, on the
> contrary, it is
> because our whole philosophy is predicated on helping to defend the
> interior
> and denying penetration. In order to be able to help you have to be
> in
> position to help. That means playing a space rather than playing
> uptight on
> your assigned player.
> There was a perfect example last night when Pierce picked up that
> offensive
> foul against Brown. The Celtics were fronting PJ and Pierce, standing
> outside the paint on the opposite corner, recognized the pass was
> coming over
> the top. He made his way across the lane and set himself up to stop
> Brown
> from an easy dunk. If he had been playing even halfway between the
> paint
> and his man he would not have had the time to respond.
> Also look at the Atlanta game. Walker "blitzed" Terry numerous times
> in the
> series leaving Rahim open. If our defense had not been prepared to
> rotate
> Rahim would have had a field day. Many times it was Pierce who
> picked up
> Rahim, especially towards the end of the game. In this case the team
> plays
> defense according to the opponents strengths. They would much rather
> have
> Ira Newble shooting an open jumper than Rahim or Robinson. It's a
> calculated
> risk that has helped them win many games in the last couple seasons.
> Hard to
> argue with what works.
> That is the Celtics defense in a nutshell. The fact that Pierce plays
> so
> many minutes and is more often than not defending on the weak side
> away from
> the ball may make it seem he's playing defense differently, but he's
> not.
> Don't watch the centers or the point guard, their responsibilities are
> different. Instead watch your tape and see what happened in the four
> minutes
> Pierce was out. Who was the weakside defender? Where was he set up
> on the
> floor? McCarty and Williams both play weakside exactly the same. Delk
> played Pierces position when Pierce went out for a series in the fourth
> around the nine minute mark. Check your tape and see where Delk was
> playing. Exactly the same way.
> There are plenty of articles from last year that back me up here and
> I've
> included them in this post. There was one in particular I was looking
> for
> and couldn't find. It had O'Brien explaining exactly what he was
> trying to
> accomplish with his defense and how he felt since Pierce was so long it
> allowed him to recover to his man quicker and therefore pay more
> attention to
> help defense. He explains how they want the opponent to take those
> shots but
> at the same time he wants to get a hand in their face to make it as
> difficult
> as possible.
> If I find it I'll pass it on to you.
> You could also go to your local bookstore and pickup a book called
> "NBA
> Prospectus". I think it is put out by The Sporting News. Just read
> the few
> pages on the Celtics, no need to actually buy the book.
> It goes into great detail about the Celtics defense and explains just
> how
> well it worked at limiting easy shots.
> The downside is that sometimes you will get a team that is patient
> about
> rotating and who has a secondary player that just catches fire from the
> outside.
> That is what happened against Toronto.
> It also happened against Detroit in the first game of the playoffs
> when Curry
> and Robinson both had great outside shooting games. And to a lesser
> extent
> New Jersey, although the transition is what really killed us there.
>
> Here are some of the articles I referenced.
>
>
> <A
> HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/message/
> 2716">Harters
> defense- pre rotating- trapping the dribbler-</A>
> If there's one trademark of a Harter defense, other than the mad
> scramble, it's what they call ''the blitz.'' Simply, it means you
> trap the dribbler on every pick-and-roll and never let up. You'll
> sometimes see Walker all the way out near halfcourt continuing to
> pressure the ball well after the pick-and-roll was supposed to have
> been executed
>
> <A
> HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/message/
> 6541">Making
> the opponents rotate the ball and shoot from the perimeter</A> &
> identifying shooters:
> ''We use this to identify shooters versus non-shooters,'' said
> Vogel. ''We
> told our team that over a 10-game span, Strickland didn't take any
> 3-pointers. And when he did take one, he almost always missed.
>
> ''We go to the video and show our guys how, when the shot clock is
> winding
> down, opposing players are running at Strickland when he's behind the
> 3-point line like he's some kind of threat.
>
> ''We visually prove to our guys, `If Rod Strickland is spotting up for
> a
> three, let him take it. Don't risk a foul trying to stop him.'''
>
> <A
> HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/message/6575";>No
> more
> layup drills</A>:
> At the other end of the floor, rules that now allow clubs to double-
> team before the ball is in a player's hands also contributed to the
> wisdom of the plan. Whereas one of O'Brien's first orders of business
> upon taking over the Celts last season was to pack in his defense -
> effectively saying, ``Beat us from the outside if you can, but the
> layup drills are over'' - he can now do it to even better result.
>
> ``We had this philosophy before they had the rule change,'' he said.
> ``The philosophy became that much more dramatic from a positive
> standpoint because of the rule change."
>
> <A
> HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/message/
> 7505">Playing
> the ball instead of the man</A>:
> "We just play the ball instead of our man," Celtics forward Eric
> Williams
> said.
> "We're not letting them get to the hoop. A lot of people call that a
> zone,
> but
> it's not."
>
> Whatever the name, it has worked. Kenny Anderson and Tony Delk have
> outplayed
> Atkins and Jones. They know if their Pistons counterparts penetrate,
> there's
> always help from a teammate. In turn, it allows Anderson and Delk to
> play
> close
> to their man.
>
> "That's our rule," Anderson said. "That's what we're about -- five guys
> stepping in people's faces, making it happen."
>
> <A
> HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/message/
> 7556">Making
> the "other guy" beat you.</A>:
> The Celtics were quietly glad Michael Curry scored 15 points in Game
> 1. That
> meant he might continue shooting, which they weren't afraid of. "If
> Michael
> Curry is going to beat us shooting threes, then we were ready to accept
> that,"
> said a player who didn't want to go on the record.
> Curry made all three of his three-point attempts in Game 1, but went
> 2-of-9
> the
> rest of the way. By sagging on the inside, Boston was more than
> willing to
> give
> Curry the outside jump shot rather than have him drive to the basket.
>
> <A
> HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celticsstuffgroup/message/
> 7673">O'Brien
> is loath to call it a zone...but:</A>
> No, really, what do you think about the fact that the Celtics have got
> everyone fooled into thinking they play zone?
>
> ''If John Chaney, Hubie Brown, Mike Dunleavy, and most announcers in
> the NBA
> say we're playing zone, we must be,'' said O'Brien. ''As soon as John
> Chaney
> told Derrick Battie[ Tony Battie's brother who played for Chaney at
> Temple]
> that we're really doing a great job of playing his zone, I decided
> that he's
> probably right. Maybe it is a zone. Maybe it's more a zone than
> man-to-man.
> I don't know what it is, but it's what we play. Let's put it this way:
> If we
> have a zone, it wasn't designed to be a zone. Now, if it has become a
> zone,
> and that's what people think it is, then maybe that's what it is. But
> it
> wasn't intended to be a zone.''
>
> TAM