----- Original Message -----
To those of you who questioned my omitting Mohammed Ali from my top 20
list:
I didn't have time to go into depth last night over why I left Ali out of
the top 10 on my list, it was so late. This caused me to have trouble
falling asleep, my brain was going 100 mph.
I glad that my reply served it's
purpose. :-)
I will never sit here and deny that Ali was a great fighter. He is
one of the all time greatest heavyweight boxers. However, I would love
to see how Ali would have fared against these former champs:
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Joe Louis
Rocky
Marciano
Same here. I'd also like to see if
Mays, DiMaggio, and Ruth
could have hit Ryan, Clemens, and
Young.
Based upon the films I have seen over the years of these fighters, I
think that they are all at least equal to or better fighters than Ali.
For Ali to boast that he is "the greatest" is actually a slander to these
great fighters.
They were great fighters, but the
fight game had changed. The
guys you mentioned were basically
flat-footed brawlers (with the
exception of Louis). They never
would have hit Ali. Again, it's
like trying to match Mays and
Clemens, Howe Gretzky,
Brown and Dickerson. They competed
in different eras.
And if you examine Ali's career closely, you see that he suffered
missteps that the aforementioned men did not suffer.
His loss in 1973 to Ken Norton and in 1978 to Leon Spinks were really
unthinkable for someone like Ali to suffer. How a fighter of Ali's
ability could allow Norton to break his jaw is beyond me. And in the
first Spinks fight, Ali was lazy and totally unprepared.
Yes, Ali did, at times, suffer from
a lackadaisical attitude.
That, however, should not diminish
the man's ability.
Spinks won in a decision, but as Ali proved in the rematch, Spinks did
not belong in the same ring with Ali. If you can show any equivalent
fights in the careers of the five deceased champs listed above, bring it
on.
I'm not a betting man (yeah,
right), but I'd bet that if there
was film of all the previous champs
fights (which there isn't)
you'd find that they took a night
off here and there, too.
The two real defining victories of Ali's career were his two wins over
Joe Frazier. I believe Frazier was the best fighter Ali ever fought,
I agree 100%. That, in fact, makes
a fighter great. He needs
a prominent opponent to prove
himself.
and I personally wish Frazier had won all of the three Ali fights so that
this great fighter would get his proper due.
and I wish Buckner had fielded the
ball...
Ali today suffers from Parkinson's disease, which most people feel was
caused by the punishment Ali took from Frazier in the Thrilla in Manila.
Frazier hit Ali so hard, Ali took a terrific pounding.
My grandfather
suffered from Parkinson's disease and he never fought
Frazier. Contrary
to popular belief, Ali's maladies aren't a result of his
boxing
career.
And IIRC, the decision that Ali won that fight (Manila) was widely
disputed and criticized; most boxing experts thought Frazier should
have won the fight. (Those of you who know Sonny Liston better than I
might want to offer up your takes here.)
damn, a contrivertial decision
prior to Don King? Imagine that !! :-)
Then there's the "rope-a-dope". This often portrays Ali as a
legendary fighter, but in reality it exposes stupidity and impatience in Ali's
opponent. This is not such a brilliant tactic by Ali as it is a
damnation of any foolish opponent to fall for it. If I were
the trainer for an Ali opponent, I would stay away from Ali for as long
as I had to, 8, 9, 10, 11 rounds, whatever it took. Wait Ali out until
he finally came to my fighter. Work him on pacing carefully while Ali
pulls his stall tactics. Watching an opponent pummel a curled-up,
clenched Ali used to make me sick. How can the fighter be that stupid to
fall for that, I thought.
No, Ali, in my mind, is portrayed
by the "float like a butterfly
and sting like a bee" legend. The
"rope-a-dope" was simply
an effective (though admittedly
boring) tactic. Now, who was
that stupid corner man that Ali had
dictating his strategies?
Finally, you have the draft refusal. I am not really qualified to
talk on this subject, I would prefer the Nam vets to offer up their takes on
this one. While I objected to the war unequivocally, I salute the men
and women who went over to Viet Nam do what they were ordered to do in the
name of their country. It's easy to sit here and say "Shame on
Ali! He dodged the draft, he should have gone like all the
other people had to!" when at the time of Ali being stripped of his title
I was only 9 years old.
Bob, you had to be
there. Frankly, I have to commend Ali for standing
his ground. He could
have very easily taken the route of DiMaggio and
"entertained" the
troops for a couple of years. It's not like he would
have been sent to Hill
14. The man stood up for his beliefs. More power
to him !!!
Now, to quote Bill B:
Now, on an other point, how
can you *not* even *mention*
Mohammed Ali in your top ten !?!?!? This man is the
most
recognizable athlete (next
to Pele) world-wide that ever
existed. To ignore him in your, or any, top 10 is folly...
I have a problem with the word "recognizable". This tells me that
you are judging Ali more on his shtick than his boxing ability. This is
why Ali will show up on many people's top ten lists: because Ali was a
loudmouth braggart, and a terrific self-promoter.
Bob, it ain't braggin'
if you can back it up !! Ali did that. Yes, he was the
original
"self-promoter", but
it's not his fault TV came of age when he did.
Most everyone in the world faints dead away when they see Ali. This
is due to this, to quote Howard Cosell, "truculent" side of Ali during his
heyday. Ali talked a great game and backed it up, yes. But if you
had Ali's ability, extrapolated to any sport, would you choose to be such a
jerk?
Jerk? Mohammed Ali is one of the
most respected, and
compassionate en on the face of the
earth. To debate his
talents as a boxer is one thing,
but to call him a jerk is just
outrageous.
I listen to the great athletes of all time and how they wax poetic about
their adversaries. What did Ted Williams say about Joe D when he
died? Did you see Magic's tribute to Bird at Bird's number
retirement? Russell and Chamberlain toss each other the highest of
praise all the time.
After the fact, mind
you...
All Ali ever talked about was how great he was and how many rounds he was
going to knock his opponent out in. Ali was fortunate in that he never
had, save for Frazier, any fighter of his true peer in his day to have to deal
with.
Frazier, Liston,
Patterson, Foreman, Quarry, and didn't he beat
Tefilio Stevenson for
the gold medal? Yeah, the competition sucked.
And again, a fighter of Ali's ilk does not lose to Norton and
Spinks.
Much like any great athlete, he
gets beat by his adversary
and then comes back to whip his ass
!!!
Instead, the world sucks up this Ali crap still to this day, and he is
revered because he is so "recognizable". You need to judge Ali in the
whole picture, not just his "aura". He was a great fighter. He was
a jerk in his prime. He was not the greatest fighter ever. He was
one of the greatest self-salesmen ever.
You are entitled to your opinion,
but it still does not diminish
the fact that Ali was/is one o the
greatest athletes ever.
ESPN will prove me correct.
:-)
-bill (what's my name?...)
On my list, Ali fits securely in the 21-30 range.
Bob George